Settle this one

[pclayton]

Played in the MBC yesterday. All was OK, except for this:

 

[hv=d=e&v=b&w=sakqxxhqtxdqxxcqj&e=sxhxdakjxxxcktxxx]266|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

East......South......West.....North

1♦......pass......1♠.....Dbl

2♣.....2♥......3♥.....pass

4♦.....All Pass

 

Any suggestions on how to get to 5♦? Should 4♦ be forcing? Or is the outcome a little unlucky?

 

3N also happens to make since the J♥ is onside.

[whereagles]

It's really difficult to say how to bid this properly because most auctions would not distinguish between opener having 1165, 0265, 2065.

 

With 1165 you want to be in 5♦

With 0265 you want to be in 3NT

With 2065 you want to be in 6♦

 

I guess I'd probably just bid either 4♦ or 3NT with the spade hand (instead of 3♥, which I don't think serves any good purpose).

[mikeh]

While I doubt that my comments will 'settle' anything, I fault West here.

 

Yes, he has wasted ♥'s but he has so much strength that he can be morally certain that partner has very short ♥s: South was not forced to bid 2♥ so probably has 5: he is clearly bidding on a near-yarborough. And other than his ♥ suit, he is closer to a slam move than he is to a pass of 4♦. He has working minor suit honours, with any ♣ hook bound to be onside after North's double. Give East x x AKxxxx A109xx and don't we all want to be in 6♦?

 

And, let's face it, what the heck was East supposed to bid? There is a case for 4♣, to better show the shape: 4♦ sounds like 6=4 and may have caused West to think too deeply: the lack of a delayed ♠ preference increases the odds of 1=2=6=4. But so what? Even if 1=2=6=4, why can't east be x xx AKxxxx Axxx? Surely the ♣ hook rates to work often enough to make game good? And would/should East bid 2♣ with a weaker 4 card suit and x xx in the majors?

 

I think West was guilty here of my major bidding sin: being way, way too pessimistic.

[HeartA]

I am not so sure if 4D is forcing, but I think it is. Even it is not, I would still bid 5D as West. My CQJ and DQ were gold. It's possible we have two quick heart loser (x, xx, AKxxxx, A/Kxxx for example). Even if so, I would hope no more minor losers.

 

As Mikeh said, it's closer to slam try than to pass.

[pclayton]

I was West; I thought pard would bid the same with some minimum 1=2=6=4.

 

This is negative thinking (and wrong); minimum 6-4's rebid 2♦ over the double; not 2♣.

 

Even then, pard could hold x, xx, AKxxxx, Kxxx - but this is a narrow target and change the K♣ to the A and you want to be in game.

 

So my bad.

[MickyB]

After our side has opened, I play all generic cuebids as game-forcing. There may well be better rules, but this seems to do well enough.

 

I think East should have bid 4♣, preferring the cheaper of two descriptive calls. Also, opposite 2-3 in the minors it could well be right to play in clubs in order to ruff out the diamonds.

[paulg]

There is also something to be said for East bidding 5♣ over 3♥ (showing distributional monster for the initial 2♣ rebid, probably lack of first round controls given no cue bid). Certainly I see East's choice as between 4♣ and 5♣ rather than 4♦.

 

Paul

[whereagles]

There is also something to be said for East bidding 5♣ over 3♥ (showing distributional monster for the initial 2♣ rebid, probably lack of first round controls given no cue bid)

You have a point here.

[mike777]

Geez why leap to 5c, leave room for slam tries.

 

No one has mentioned this but after this start 3H must be game forcing. In other words 3H must promise a rebid after 1d and a 2club rebid by partner.

 

Partner can pass the x of one spade with some minimum 2245 hand.

[bid_em_up]

Put me in the camp of East bidding 4♣ to complete their hand pattern.

 

Had he done so, I dont think you would have any problem bidding 5D over 4C. I also think that you should raise 4D to 5D, imo. Good fitting values in both minor suits along with the good spades. Partner cant hold many major suit cards.

 

But I suppose this sort of thing happens quite easily when you tend to also open hands like

 

x xx AKxxxx Kxxx in first seat. :P

[jikl]

I am in the camp that says 3♥ is game forcing and therefore promises a rebid if game has not benn reached.

 

Sean

[HeartA]

Actually I prefer 4C, too. But I can live with 4D (absolutely against 5C). Since 4C or 4D is not the question Phil is concerned (?), I didn't comment on it.

[the hog]

3H is not necessarily a Gf as you should be able to stop in 4m with no H stopper. East has a 5C bid and now tere is an easy conversion to 5D

[Free]

West has 16hcp, his partner opens, but somehow can't find a game? <_<

 

Depending on how you respond to 4th suit forcing, some play 4♣ as no stopper and no extra distributional info. So 4♦ will show a 6-4 which is ok. It's not up to opener to decide to go to 5m since he's minimum, and may have too many losers.

 

My advice, especially for west on this hand: don't be afraid of 5m ;)

[Codo]

I prefer to play 3 ♥ as game forcing too. Once in a while you are in 5m -1. But to have more room to investigate for slam is of much more value then the narrow goal to stop in 4 m when it is right.