awm Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 I've noticed recently that there are several different opening criteria out there. Let's assume you're playing with a regular partner using whatever methods you prefer. Which of these qualify for a constructive one-level opening bid (not counting whatever preemptive methods you use for weak hands)? A. ♠ AQT94♥ K83♦ QJ4♣ T8 B. ♠ AJ864♥ KQ2♦ 984♣ 64 C. ♠ AQ984♥ 4♦ KJ862♣ 32 D. ♠ AT854♥ 4♦ KJ862♣ 32 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arrows Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 A, C, D. B is not a 1st/2nd seat opening hand unless you play light open by agreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bid_em_up Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 A, C, D. B is not a 1st/2nd seat opening hand unless you play light open by agreement. Neither are C or D. :) (Note: Constructive!!) While many may open them on the basis of rule of 20 (or ZAR), I will assume we are referring to first/second seat openings in a 2/1 context. These hands do not meet criteria for constructive openings in my methods. A barely qualifies, and only because of the suit texture in the spade suit. In 3rd/4th seats, ABC are all openers. I would never open D, regardless of position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 We open light. All balanced 11 counts and less with shape. So A and C are yes. D is no. B is technically no but I have seen partners open this one nv sometimes when feeling funky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 The poll choices are slightly odd because I would say that C was the strongest hand there, followed by A, then D close behind that and then B a long way further down. I would certainly open C, almost certainly A, and would like to open D as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 Playing MOSCITO, A, C, and D all qualify for a 1 level opening Here's a few examples of minium strength constructive openings with unbalanced hands. Balanced or three suited hands require a decent 11 count, which rules out B Hand 1 ♠ 32 ♥ KJ74 ♦ 6 ♣ AT9632 Hand 2 ♠ 64♥ A2 ♦ QT976♣ K975 Hand 3♠ KT872♥ A5♦ Q2 ♣ T653 Hand 4♠ 9♥ AT9753♦ A65 ♣ 842 Hand 5♠ J87643♥ AK94♦ 6♣ T3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 To open an 8 hcp hand playing 2/1 I would need more than 10 cards in my long suits or something outstanding such as: ATxx...AT9xxx...void...xxx You start to get some wide ranges if you open and respond really light so I prefer to place some restraints. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 Zar followers would open all but B which has only 24 ZAR POINTS. I would certainly open A and C, hand D I would open with certain parnters, hand B might open at matchpoints not vul due to the concentration of hcp and as long as I was playing semi-forcing 1NT. So I guess my answer is A and C aare claer openers. Hand D with some partners (say 50/50 opener) and hand B almost never. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartA Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 A and C only. But D is closer than B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 Playing MOSCITO, A, C, and D all qualify for a 1 level opening Here's a few examples of minium strength constructive openings with unbalanced hands. Balanced or three suited hands require a decent 11 count, which rules out B Hand 3♠ KT872♥ A5♦ Q2 ♣ T653 To me, this hand looks weaker than Adam's hand B in all respects (including playing strength). So what is the rationale for opening this one but passing with hand B? Arend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted September 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 Well there are two basic ways to evaluate hands. Either you count distribution heavily or you don't. Of course within this there are a lot of options as to exactly how to do the counting. When I wrote the poll my feeling was that almost everyone opens 5332 12-counts, so A would provide a baseline (and just in case some Fantoni-Nunes or Roth-Stone style players want refuse to open any of these hands constructively that's available). I agree that if you count distribution heavily, C could easily be considered stronger than A, but I'd be surprised if there were many who open C and not A. Feel free to pick "other" if this is you. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 Playing MOSCITO, A, C, and D all qualify for a 1 level opening Here's a few examples of minium strength constructive openings with unbalanced hands. Balanced or three suited hands require a decent 11 count, which rules out B Hand 3♠ KT872♥ A5♦ Q2 ♣ T653 To me, this hand looks weaker than Adam's hand B in all respects (including playing strength). So what is the rationale for opening this one but passing with hand B? Arend I agree that Hand B offers more playing strength than Hand A, however, MOSCITO has different standards for balanced and unbalanced hands. I feel a lot more exposed opening a 5332 pattern than I do opening a 5422. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 A and C. B is a mini notrump if I'm playing that. D is a 2-suited preempt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 All four in Echo club. However, B is certainly optional. I personally would not open it at vulnerable in 1/2, but I wouldn't mind if my partner did. D is a common opener for us, so that if partner shows a 55 shape, we are mindful that he could be very light. Playing my 2/1 systems, Menagerie MPs or Menagerie IMPs, I would open A and C, but not B and D, but would perhaps open D playing MPs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 "While many may open them on the basis of rule of 20 (or ZAR), I will assume we are referring to first/second seat openings in a 2/1 context." About half of 2/1 players I know would open C. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 Really need to see follow up systems that play D is an opener in first or second seat Vul in some 2/1 style, wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 A and C are obvious opener's for me regardless of system. D is an opening bid if we play 2 suited openings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 when you play a system like 2/1 you better not open light, therefore a and c are the openings. If i play strong club system i might open all of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 In most partnerships I'd open A and C, but with my regular p I'll open A, C and D since we open light with limited openings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenberg Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 A is a decent 12 count with no clear defects and so it's an easy opener for me. C has all 10 of my hcps in my two five card suits so I open it, especially since I have spades. B and D are not close to openers for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_U_Card Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 A and C anytime, B in 3rd or 4th seat anytime and D only in 3rd seat with a weak 2S bid, non-vul vs vul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted September 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 I think every answer except "none of the above" works in at least one of my partnerships (and I could see none of the above if I played Fantoni-Nunes type methods too). In particular: (1) Playing two-over-one in any number of semi-regular partnerships, I would open only A. This is because I expect partner to force to game on a good twelve or any thirteen without a spade fit, and if a diamond fit fails to materialize as well (give partner Jx AKxxx xx KQxx for example) then I'll get into trouble if I opened C. My partners will open pretty light in 3rd/4th especially if holding 4+♠, which tends to protect the initial pass on hands C and D. (2) Playing what could loosely be called standard american with Elianna (including a number of Italian conventions like Gazilli) I would open A and C. The nice thing about these methods is that partner can make a 2/1 with misfitting hands and still stop short of game when a misfit is discovered. (3) Playing strong club and light openings with Sam, I would open A, C, and D. Once again our decisions whether to game force on a non-fitting hand are delayed a round, allowing the misfit to be evaluated. In fact if Sam held the aforementioned Jx AKxxx xx KQxx, our auction opposite hands C or D would be 1♠-2♥-2♠-Pass. Note that we are not particularly aggressive about opening balanced hands, and would not really consider opening hand B (balanced hands need to be worth a game bid opposite a 13-count from partner). (4) Playing strong diamond and light openings with David, I would consider opening C and D only (the other response). Our 1M openings guarantee unbalanced shape, so hands A and B aren't possible 1♠ bids. Our 2/1 structures are similar to what I play with Sam. We typically pass balanced 12-counts at vulnerable, although I would consider upgrading hand A to show 13-15 balanced. At NV we play 10-12 notrumps so I would open all four hands. (5) Playing strong club and light openings with Josh Sher, I would definitely consider opening A, B, and C. We play game forcing 2/1 bids, but the misfitting hand (Jx AKxxx xx KQxx) is probably not strong enough to make one. Our opening range is generally 10-14 in 1st/2nd seat. This makes my opening philosophy similar to what I'd open playing 2/1, except that I'm basically "adding a queen" which brings hand B into the opening range but creates the same problems with hand D that a straight 2/1 approach might have with hand C. Anyways I thought this was an interesting survey. The results seem to indicate that people are willing to open about 2-3 points light with a 5-5 hand, which seems to me that it could get them in trouble if they play an approach where partner must immediately decide whether to game force (either via 2/1 GFing or a GF relay) without knowledge of side suit fits. Then again my opinions are decidedly non-mainstream in this regard. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted September 14, 2006 Report Share Posted September 14, 2006 "Anyways I thought this was an interesting survey. The results seem to indicate that people are willing to open about 2-3 points light with a 5-5 hand, which seems to me that it could get them in trouble if they play an approach where partner must immediately decide whether to game force (either via 2/1 GFing or a GF relay) without knowledge of side suit fits. Then again my opinions are decidedly non-mainstream in this regard." I share your dislike of 2/1, though I play it (when in Rome...). Your objection above is valid, but the horrible 1NT forcing convention is to me a far worse defect. That said, I open hands like C playing 2/1. The downside of passing seems worse than the occasional bad 2NT/3NT contract. Mileage may vary. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zasanya Posted September 14, 2006 Report Share Posted September 14, 2006 A is a clear opener in the classical way.Everybody would like to open other shapely two suiters even though they do not conform to the minimum classical requirement of 12+ points.I think the matter can be easily resolved if one plays Tartans/RCOs and multi 2♦.Then all these hands can be opened without compromising on the classical requirement of 12 points and 2 defensive tricks.This of course cannot be done in pick up partnerships.I wonder why very few regular partnerships play Tartans with multi 2♦. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted September 15, 2006 Report Share Posted September 15, 2006 "This of course cannot be done in pick up partnerships.I wonder why very few regular partnerships play Tartans with multi 2D." You are again misstating what Tartan 2 bids are. Please look them up in the Encyclopedia or Chris Ryall's web site to avoid confusing posters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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