Apollo81 Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 ♠x♥KQJxxx♦AQxx♣Kx unfavorable, IMPs, against good players (3♠)-4♥-(4♠)-Dbl-(pass)-? Agreement is "responsive thru 4♥" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blofeld Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 The agreement makes the double penalties, so I pass ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 Hi, Pass, I have a hand partner can expect for a vul. 4H bid. I will take the money.I am not sure, what the agreementabout resp. dbl. has to do with the problem. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 Pass. Thinking is an overbid. You have a minimum 4♥ overcall... certainly there is NOTHING about your hand that should be a surprise to partner, and he has said that he wants to defend. There is no rational basis, in partnership bridge, to overrule him. Yes, it is entirely possible that you have a home in the ♦ suit... perhaps even a slam.. but you cannot pull the double to 5♦... that call would describe a different hand than the one at which you are looking. Masterminders bid here, bridge players wonder about the lead: a trump or the ♥K? Put another way, if S doubled slowly, and North pulled, the committee should roll the contract back, unless the pull generated a worse result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 The agreement is that double is penalties, therefore why should I do anything except pass? As it happens, my agreement is that double is 'convertible values' (take-out, if you like) and even then I consider it a marginal decision whether to pass or bid on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 Even if pard has a take out double, there's a case for passing :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 Well there's some question as to the meaning of double. If it's a true "penalty double" then it's fairly clear to sit. But I don't think many of us play double this way. The sensible meaning of double in this auction is "I have a good hand and not a real fit for hearts" which is basically "cards." I'd tend to pass this double with some spade length (say two or three small) but with a singleton it's usually right to bid. The opponents seem to have ten spades, we should have a fit somewhere. Double would be partner's normal call with 22(45), 2155, or even 1255 shape, especially if 4nt would not be "pick a minor." It seems all too likely that we have a slam; all partner needs is not to have too much in spades, and even if partner has spade wastage we can normally make 5♦ or 5♥ (quite possibly worth more than defending 4♠X in the opponents ten card fit when we are unfavorable). I'd bid 5♦. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartA Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 I'd bid 5♦. Me, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arrows Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 For me, double means "useful" values.This hand is a little bit soft for another bid, but it also has no wasted value. The number of total tricks is roughly 19, looks promising for a 5 level contract.I 'd bid 5D if partner knows heart is the anchor suit in this case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zasanya Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 I'd bid 5♦. Me, too.Does it mean that with the hand in Question you can never collect penalty?P cant double because you will bid 5.Will you double if P passes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 I have defensive tricks for sure and so has pd, so maybe we can collect 5 or more tricks against 4 Spade.But I read " unfavorable, IMPs", so I would like to make at least game my side. If pds hand is strong enough to collect 800, he may be strong enough for a slam too.He needs Axx,xx,Kx,Axx to make slam close to 100 % and I have an outside chance, that we will push them to the 5. level. After all, they are at fav. vul. SO I take the outside vue an bid 4 NT looking for a slam. Just if the X was a clear penalty- which it was not- I would pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartA Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 For this kind of hands, it's quite possible that eveyone has shortness. It's even possible that opps can make 4S while we have a slam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 "Well there's some question as to the meaning of double." Not the way the poster has described it. The X is for penalties. I lead a trump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 "Well there's some question as to the meaning of double." Not the way the poster has described it. The X is for penalties. I lead a trump. The descirition was: Agreement is "responsive thru 4♥" I do not see, why this must imply that the double now is strict penalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 Noble - I'll bet if you asked your pard about what a double means, you wouldn't get an answer like "penalty". Convertible values is the norm I think, even if you play responsive doubles through a lower level. I haven't had a trump stack on this auction in 10 years. There are just too any many hands where pard is 'stuck' holding: Qxx, Ax, Kxxx, Axxx and has to double. I'd double with one less card too. I'll pull; I like 5♥; this isn't a true 2-suiter. 4N is tempting, but I have no guarantee of a parking place for the 4th diamond, even if pard has the magic hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 The descirition was: Agreement is "responsive thru 4♥" I do not see, why this must imply that the double now is strict penalty. Penalty doesn't mean you have KQJT, but sure have points... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted September 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 "Well there's some question as to the meaning of double." Not the way the poster has described it. The X is for penalties. I lead a trump. The descirition was: Agreement is "responsive thru 4♥" I do not see, why this must imply that the double now is strict penalty. Responsive thru 4♥ does not imply that X of 4♠ is strict penalty imo. -Noble Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted September 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 Noble - I'll bet if you asked your pard about what a double means, you wouldn't get an answer like "penalty". Convertible values is the norm I think, even if you play responsive doubles through a lower level. I haven't had a trump stack on this auction in 10 years. There are just too any many hands where pard is 'stuck' holding: Qxx, Ax, Kxxx, Axxx and has to double. I'd double with one less card too. I'll pull; I like 5♥; this isn't a true 2-suiter. 4N is tempting, but I have no guarantee of a parking place for the 4th diamond, even if pard has the magic hand. My opinion is that pulling is right; at the time I posted I wasn't sure whether pulling to 5♦ or 5♥ is better. After thinking about it some more I think 5♦ is clearly the better of these two options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshs Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 Noble - I'll bet if you asked your pard about what a double means, you wouldn't get an answer like "penalty". Convertible values is the norm I think, even if you play responsive doubles through a lower level. I haven't had a trump stack on this auction in 10 years. There are just too any many hands where pard is 'stuck' holding: Qxx, Ax, Kxxx, Axxx and has to double. I'd double with one less card too. I'll pull; I like 5♥; this isn't a true 2-suiter. 4N is tempting, but I have no guarantee of a parking place for the 4th diamond, even if pard has the magic hand. My opinion is that pulling is right; at the time I posted I wasn't sure whether pulling to 5♦ or 5♥ is better. After thinking about it some more I think 5♦ is clearly the better of these two options. I think 4N should not be rkc, but a scramble (2/3 places to play). You will correct 5C to 5D to imply 6-4. A direct 5D bid should be 5-5 or 6-5 (or maybe 5-6). But if 4N is rkc however impossible that is, you have to decide between 5D and 5H..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 My feeling is that I would usually not bid 4♥ over 3♠ on a five-card suit. Usually I will try a double followed by correcting to 4♥ on such a hand, to indicate tolerance for playing the contract elsewhere. Perhaps a very strong five-carder would be acceptable. Since 4♥ almost shows six, I feel much more comfortable to bid 5♦ over 4♠. Partner will know I am much more likely 6-4 than 5-5 on this sequence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdeegan Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 :) Regardless of the actual outcome on this hand, it is easier to take four tricks than eleven. All partner's double shows is that he thinks it is our hand, and he will not be stolen from. My overcall contains 15 HCP, a king more than absolutely necessary. Time to defend, imo. It figures to be the percentage position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dake50 Posted September 14, 2006 Report Share Posted September 14, 2006 Wouldn't partner with HA+CA+DK add 3 tricks, great controls to my 8-9 playing tricks and slam? Yes. So he doesn't have them! Penalty big enough ( or only plus) is only question left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted September 15, 2006 Report Share Posted September 15, 2006 "Well there's some question as to the meaning of double." Not the way the poster has described it. The X is for penalties. I lead a trump. The descirition was: Agreement is "responsive thru 4♥" I do not see, why this must imply that the double now is strict penalty. This is a comment I totally fail to understand and is the type of explanation that causes aggravation at the table. You either play Responsive doubles to a certain level or you do not. This poster has clearly said Resp to 4H. That means that doubles above 4H are for penalties. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ppek Posted September 15, 2006 Report Share Posted September 15, 2006 I have a hand I should have for my 4♥ bid, so I am going to pass. My partners can usually judge these situations well and I have no reason not to trust them. We have also methods how to show a slam try hands, competitive hands for 5♥ so I do not worry, that it is the kind of "I have points and don't know what to do" double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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