Walddk Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 This is a very unusual bidding sequence which few partnerships have discussed (I think). 1Club pass 1Spade pass2Clubs pass pass .. 3♣? What has he got? Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 I'm not totally convinced the auction exists. The only thing we really know for certain is that partner has very short clubs, as he would pass with very long clubs. However, given my agreements after 1C P 1S which are- 1NT natural, strong- 2S natural I think partner is something like 5440 or possibly 5350 with a good hand. He didn't double 1S because he knew we'd never get to spades; he doesn't double 2C because he doesn't want to defend. [if we played 2S on the previous round as conventional, then I think partner has a very good hand with long spades] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_c Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 Looks like a freak two-suiter to me. And the reason we didn't bid on the previous round is one of the suits is spades. So my guess is spades and a red suit, at least 6-5, probably 6-6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted September 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 - 2S natural Yes, the 3♣ bid now is based upon the agreement that 2♠ first time around would have been natural, non-forcing. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 I agree with david_c that he can't have any one-suiter. A very strong spade 1-suiter that didn't want to bid a non-forcing 2S last round could jump to 3S this round. (I've never had the auction 1C P 1S 3S before either) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 Don't ask me. I have never been able to figure out what it's gots in its pocketses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 No idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickyB Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 There seem to be two sensible hands to show - 5(35)0 and the extreme two suiter. 2NT is also available and pushes us to the same level, so I think 3C should show the 2-suiter and 2NT the semi 3-suiter - allowing a 3C cue as "what's your red suit?" and 3 of either red suit as "to play". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 Well, it is not clubs. I ran this auction (well, I used 1C-P-1any-Pass-2C-Pass-Pass-3C) on a database of 23 million auctions. I turned up this auction as occuring 8 times. This is what the hands were...It was a two suiter takeout 5 times, and a three suited take out 3 times. Not much to go on here. If I had to guess, I would say two suiter with spades (or whatever suit RHO bid) and an unbid suit. Produced by BRidgeBRowser on 11-Sep-06 ======================================== IMP-21 East Dlr: West Board 756 S K6 Vul: Both H J9876 North D AJ4 South S AT2 C 932 S QJ953 H K32 H QT D 9763 West D KQT85 C K75 S 874 C T H A54 D 2 C AQJ864 North East South West 1C Pass 1H Pass 2C Pass Pass 3C Pass 3D Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: C3 Result: Down 1 Score: 100 Points: 0.45 1. E C3/T/A/5 2. W HA/2/6/T 3. W H5/3/7/Q 4. S DK/2/3/A 5. E H9/D5/H4/HK 6. S DQ/C4/D6/D4 7. S SQ/4/2/K 8. E DJ ------------------------------------------ IMP-21 East Dlr: North Board 469 S JT3 Vul: N-S H T7 North D AT87 South S 8 C AJT2 S Q9742 H KQJ86 H 53 D 6 West D KQ2 C KQ6543 S AK65 C 987 H A942 D J9543 C North East South West 1C Pass 1S Pass 2C Pass Pass 3C Dbl 3D Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: C9 Result: Made 3 Score: 110 Points: -2.90 1. S C9/H2/CQ/CA 2. E H10/5/A/8 3. W H4/J/7/3 4. N HK/D7/DQ/H9 5. S S4/A/8/3 6. W D3/6/T/K 7. S S2/K/C3/ST 8. W D4/H6/DA/D2 ------------------------------------------ MP-21 East Dlr: West Board 148 S AJ6 Vul: Both H 76543 North D J7 South S 9532 C J98 S KQ87 H K9 H AJT2 D 9653 West D A842 C T73 S T4 C Q H Q8 D KQT C AK6542 North East South West 1C Pass 1H Pass 2C Pass Pass 3C Pass 3S Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: C8 Result: Down 1 Score: 100 Points: 49.40 1. E C8/Q/K/3 2. W DQ/3/7/A 3. S H2/Q/K/3 4. N S2/6/K/4 5. S SQ/T/3/A 6. E CJ/S7/C2/C7 7. S HA/8/9/4 8. S HJ/C4/D5/H5 9. S H10/C5/CT/H6 10. S D2/K/6/J 11. W D10/9/H7/D4 12. W CA/S5/C9/D8 13. N S9/J/8/C6 ------------------------------------------ IMP-26 East Dlr: South Board 1035 S KQT74 Vul: None H AQJT3 North D J32 South S 32 C S A5 H 9762 H 84 D K84 West D AT76 C QJ53 S J986 C A9842 H K5 D Q95 C KT76 North East South West 1C Pass 1H Pass 2C Pass Pass 3C Dbl 3NT Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: CQ Result: Made 4 Score: 430 Points: 0.76 1. N CQ/D2/C2/CK 2. W S6/2/Q/A 3. S C4/6/J/D3 4. N C5/H3/CA/C7 5. S C9/T/3/DJ ------------------------------------------ MP-40 East Dlr: East Board 530 S KT73 Vul: N-S H A96 North D 832 South S 986 C KT3 S AQ42 H T3 H K85 D A96 West D JT C AQ852 S J5 C J964 H QJ742 D KQ754 C 7 North East South West Pass Pass Pass 1C Pass 1S Pass 2C Pass Pass 3C Dbl 3NT Pass Pass Dbl Pass Pass 4D Pass Pass Dbl Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: S6 Result: Down 3 Score: -500 Points: 0.00 1. N S6/3/Q/5 2. S C4/7/A/3 3. N S8/7/A/J 4. S CJ/H2/C5/CK 5. E D2/T/Q/A 6. N CQ/T/6/D4 7. W DK/6/3/J 8. W HQ/3/6/K 9. S H5/4/T/A 10. E SK/2/H7/S9 11. E S10/4/HJ/D9 12. N C8 ------------------------------------------ IMP-36 East Dlr: South Board 767 S A542 Vul: N-S H A982 North D AQ92 South S J63 C 4 S Q9 H 6 H KQJ D JT763 West D 85 C AJ83 S KT87 C KQT652 H T7543 D K4 C 97 North East South West 1C Pass 1D Pass 2C Pass Pass 3C* Dbl 3H 4C 4H Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: CA Result: Made 4 Score: 420 Points: 5.99 1. N CA/4/2/7 2. N D3/9/5/4 3. E HA/J/3/6 4. E H2/Q/4/C3 5. S HK/5/C8/H8 6. S CK/9/J/H9 7. E D2/8/K/6 8. W S7/3/A/9 9. E DA/C5 ------------------------------------------ IMP-39 East Dlr: North Board 913 S 62 Vul: None H J9 North D Q7643 South S QT4 C Q532 S 98 H 53 H AQ76 D A5 West D KT982 C AKJT74 S AKJ753 C 98 H KT842 D J C 6 North East South West 1C Pass 1D Pass 2C Pass Pass 3C* Dbl Pass Pass 4S Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: CA Result: Down 2 Score: -100 Points: 0.15 1. N CA/2/9/6 2. N DA/3/8/J 3. N D5/7/9/S3 4. W SA/4/2/8 5. W SK/T/6/9 6. W H2/3/J/Q 7. S C8/S5/C7/C3 8. W HK/5/9/A 9. S DK/S7/C4/D4 10. W H10/SQ/C5/H6 11. N CK ------------------------------------------ MP-4 East Dlr: West Board 536 S A Vul: None H Q7543 North D 98764 South S JT642 C T6 S K875 H AT62 H D A2 West D K5 C 54 S Q93 C AQ98732 H KJ98 D QJT3 C KJ North East South West Pass Pass Pass 1C Pass 1S Pass 2C Pass Pass 3C 3S Pass 4S Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: SA Result: Made 4 Score: -420 Points: 26.89 1. E SA/5/3/2 2. E C6/A/J/4 3. S S7/Q/4/D4 4. W CK/5/T/2 5. W DQ/A/6/5 6. N HA/3/C3/H8 7. N H2/4/S8/H9 8. S CQ/D3/H6/D7 9. S DK/T/2/8 10. S C7/S9/ST/D9 11. N H10/7/SK/HJ 12. S C8/DJ/S6/H5 13. N SJ/HQ/C9/HK ------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 Hi, one open question: What would 2C have meant over 1S?Would it have been conventional?In which case, as weird as it may seem, 3C has to be natural. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 Hum.. 8 times in 23 million boards? At a 0,000035% chance per board of it happening to me, I'll take my chances that it won't happen in my lifetime and simply disregard this auction B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted September 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 I'll take my chances that it won't happen in my lifetime and simply disregard this auction B) As you wish, but a hand came up over the weekend (Irish Camrose Trials) where David Greenwood thought he had a perfect hand for the very rare 3♣ bid on an auction like this. He asked me how I would interpret 3♣, and I told him. Some of you have been very close already. I'll post his hand a little later. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 Hi, one open question: What would 2C have meant over 1S?Would it have been conventional?In which case, as weird as it may seem, 3C has to be natural. With kind regardsMarlowe 3C making = +110 (9 tricks for you). Their 2C winning 4 tricks is down 4, at least +200 for you. So for a partscore issue, bidding 3C with clubs doesn't seem right. I guess if you hoped to make 3NT when this woke partner up, it might be worth it, but maybe you should have bid 3C over 1C then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 Hi, one open question: What would 2C have meant over 1S?Would it have been conventional?In which case, as weird as it may seem, 3C has to be natural. With kind regardsMarlowe 3C making = +110 (9 tricks for you). Their 2C winning 4 tricks is down 4, at least +200 for you. So for a partscore issue, bidding 3C with clubs doesn't seem right. I guess if you hoped to make 3NT when this woke partner up, it might be worth it, but maybe you should have bid 3C over 1C then. Hi, I am not claiming 3C natural makes a lot of Bridge sense, but than the given auction does not make a lot of sense. A strong 2/3-suiter assuming, I hold the diamonds andhearts could have made a direct dbl after 1S or bid 2NT. And a 2-suiter with spades??? If they have psyched 1 spade, they got me, and I have toaccept it, I am never conving partner that I hold spades+? With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted September 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 And a 2-suiter with spades??? If they have psyched 1 spade, they got me, and I have toaccept it, I am never conving partner that I hold spades+? I don't think responder has psyched, but I do think that 3♣ includes spades now. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 I've been thinking about this for a while now... Weither it's a 2-suiter or 3-suiter, it should include ♠ (so far I got immediatly). But that's the meaning of a double, right? So it CAN'T be 2/3-suiter, it can't be ♣, it can't be ♠, it can hardly be ♥ or ♦, so what's left? Balanced hands? No way. I guess he just wants to find a stopper ♣ with a looooooong solid ♦ suit or so, but why didn't he bid it the previous round? I still haven't figured it out... B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 Process of elimination: It can't be a pure ♠ one suiter.... could have bid some number of ♠ now. Could be a very strong ♠ one suiter with red stops.... so 3♣ asks for a ♣ stopper: AKQ10xxx Ax KJx x... not willing to commit to a ten trick game but sure interested in a 9 trick contract Could be a 5=4=4=0 very good hand.... Could be a spade-red suit two suiter.... but with 5=5, for example, and a hand now worth committing to the 3-level, most would have bid the red suit earlier. The main problem with the 5=4=4=0 hand is that the 3♣ bidder has no safety... no assurance, at all, of a fit... with RHO perhaps holding as much as a 9 count with 5431 shape and partner is stuck with 6♣ and out. With 5440 and enough that the prospect of flailing for a fit at the 3-level is not so terrifying as to force a pass, I think that he might have doubled 1♠.... but I am not comfortable with this. So I reluctantly opt for the first meaning: a very good hand with near solid or solid ♠ and some expectation of 9 tricks in 3N if partner can stop ♣. If I read the comments from Roland correctly, the player who held the 3♣ hand merely thought about bidding it and did not actually do it: which I think is the perfect way to deal with these thoughts... no partner deserves to have to figure out 3♣ at the table B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 Could be a very strong ♠ one suiter with red stops.... so 3♣ asks for a ♣ stopper: AKQ10xxx Ax KJx x... not willing to commit to a ten trick game but sure interested in a 9 trick contract Wouldn't you bid 3S on that hand? If I read the comments from Roland correctly, the player who held the 3♣ hand merely thought about bidding it and did not actually do it: which I think is the perfect way to deal with these thoughts... no partner deserves to have to figure out 3♣ at the table Absolutely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTired Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 "No matter how clever, a bid that confuses partner is a poor bid." - Me What is our hand? How can we accurately guage what our partner's clever bid means without the context of what we have? First things, first... I can't pass. So I have to do something. I will bid my cheapest 3+ card red suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted September 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 1Club pass 1Spade pass2Clubs pass pass .. 3♣? "How would you interpret 3♣", David Greenwood asked me. He got this back: "Very strong hand with spades, and possibly a red suit on the side. A hand too good to bid a natural 2♠ first time around, and not suitable for a leap to 4♠. 6-5, 6-4, 5-5, 5-4, and then I will correct 3♦ to 3♥ if I have the majors and 3♥ to 3♠ if I have spades and diamonds". After a while I got this back from David: "Right Roland. Thought I had invented a bid but any expert should deduce the obvious. I was given the hand ♠ AK1098x♥ AKQxx♦ void ♣ xx from the CBAI Camrose Trials by BJ O'Brien. He actually doubled 1♠ and then got into a mess of course. Over 3♣ partner will bid 3♦ and you clarify with 3♥. 4♠ makes if you guess the spades which are QJxx onside. Only one dummy entry". Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 Could be a very strong ♠ one suiter with red stops.... so 3♣ asks for a ♣ stopper: AKQ10xxx Ax KJx x... not willing to commit to a ten trick game but sure interested in a 9 trick contract Wouldn't you bid 3S on that hand? If I read the comments from Roland correctly, the player who held the 3♣ hand merely thought about bidding it and did not actually do it: which I think is the perfect way to deal with these thoughts... no partner deserves to have to figure out 3♣ at the table Absolutely. I really don't know B) The whole point is that I am not sure that I can come up with a hand for the 3♣ call that was a clear pass earlier... maybe 3♠ on the previous round would have been the long one-suiter without side values... or maybe 3♠ on the previous round would be, say, xx Ax AKQJxxx Ax? We are, almost by definition, discussing unusual hands, thus the argument that xx Ax AKQJxxx Ax is too unusual to worry about falls away. I suppose one point that comes through loud and clear on this thread is that it would help if we knew the partnership agreements/tendencies-from-analogous-sequences for all the possible immediate actions that the 3♣ bidder did not take. The only one we know of is that an immediate 2♠ would be natural and non-forcing... and that is not much help :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted September 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 The only one we know of is that an immediate 2♠ would be natural and non-forcing... and that is not much help :rolleyes: As I said in my initial post, I doubt that many (if any) partnerships have an agreement as to what 3♣ shows on this auction. So how can I tell you more than 2♠ would be natural and non-forcing? Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 1Club pass 1Spade pass2Clubs pass pass .. 3♣? "How would you interpret 3♣", David Greenwood asked me. He got this back: "Very strong hand with spades, and possibly a red suit on the side. A hand too good to bid a natural 2♠ first time around, and not suitable for a leap to 4♠. 6-5, 6-4, 5-5, 5-4, and then I will correct 3♦ to 3♥ if I have the majors and 3♥ to 3♠ if I have spades and diamonds". After a while I got this back from David: "Right Roland. Thought I had invented a bid but any expert should deduce the obvious. I was given the hand ♠ AK1098x♥ AKQxx♦ void ♣ xx from the CBAI Camrose Trials by BJ O'Brien. He actually doubled 1♠ and then got into a mess of course. Over 3♣ partner will bid 3♦ and you clarify with 3♥. 4♠ makes if you guess the spades which are QJxx onside. Only one dummy entry". Roland OK...I would have just bid 2s natural planning on rebidding hearts natural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arrows Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 Why couldn't it be a running suit, asking for club stopper? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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