Showing Five Hearts After 1NT Forcing

[pbleighton]

I am new to 2/1, and to 1NT Forcing. What I have read is that after the sequence 1S-P-1NT-P-2C-P, the responder's showing a new suit shows:

1) At the 2 level, a weak hand and a 6 card suit, or a strong 5 card suit.

2) At the 3 level (jump), invitational values and a very good 6 card suit.

 

Is this common practice, or just the sources I have read (or maybe I am misreading them)? If correct, how strict is it? What would you do in the above sequence holding:

x-AKxxx-Axxx-xxx

[bglover]

First, the source you quoted gives a fairly accurate explanation of what a new suit means by the 1nt bidder... Opener should strive to pass with a bad hand if he at all can, and responder should strive to respond 2 of opener's major if at all feasible.

 

For example you hold this:

 

x

Qxx

Ajxxxx

xxx

 

 

Partner opens 1S, you bid 1nt and p rebids 2C. You bid 2D

and expect partner to pass any hand containing at least 1 diamond and fewer than 5 clubs to go with his spades (if he is 5-5 in the black suits he will probably rebid 5C in any event).

 

Partner did not jump in this sequence so he is not forcing game... however he can have a strong hand and just be preserving bidding space... If he bids a new (4th) suit it is forcing and also if he jump rebids his 2d suit its forcing. Most of the time though, he will pass 2D here as you have said you have a six bagger and a relative bust.

 

Now, as to your second question... that hand, in my opinion, is good enough for a 2/1 response in hearts despite the stiff spade.

 

You are control-rich (AKA), you have a very good source of tricks in hearts, your hand may well be suited to 3NT... You could start with 1NT and then jump in hts after partner's forced response but I judge that hand just good enough to start a 2/1 sequence...

[pbleighton]

So x-AKxxx-Axxx-xxx  is good enough for 2/1 response. Interesting! I can see that, now that you point it out. But make it x-AKxxx-Kxxx-xxx (if you think that's not good enough, or something a little worse if you do, but still having invitational values). The real point of my question, obscured by my choice of hand, was is it wise/permissable for the responder to jump shift in hearts with invitational values not good enough for a 2/1 response, with a good 5 card (or OK 6 card) heart suit, given the fact that opener may well be 5-3-2-3, or is it better to follow the guideline and not bid it.  If you don't bid it, would you pass 2C with 3 small, or correct to 2S with 1. My thought would be to pass.

[inquiry]

Wait....

 

As responder after forcing 1NT, you asked. "If you don't bid it, would you pass 2C with 3 small, or correct to 2S with 1. My thought would be to pass. "

 

Passing with 3 clubs is not really very desirable. In fact, passing with even 4C is not a too good an idea (I have done it, but only in a big pinch). Remember, your partner might have only 3C and, some 2/1 players will bid 2C on a 2 card suit so that 2D promises 4D's (not me, but very many). So you could be in a 3-3 or (heaven forbid) a 2-3 fit, with a 5-3 H fit.

 

Going back to 2S on a singleton is also not good. So just bid your longest red suit.

 

Ok.. time for an alternative view

 

With x AKxxx Axxx xxx..... There are good arguements for both a game forcing 2H and an invitational sequence starting with 1NT.  I would tend to bid 1NT, especially with most of my partners who open 1Spade on Rule of 11 hands all too frequently with hands like:

 S-KQxxx

  H-x

  D-Qxx

 C-AJxx

 

Opposite such a misfit minimum, where are you going on this hand?  (Of course with partners who always hold a good 13 hcp to open, I would bid 2H game force... where are all those guys these days?  :)   )  Of course, you can guess a lot of hands, some better. But bidding 1NT doesn't mean you want get to game.

 

What is the down side of 1NT? OVer the two most likely responses (2C/2D), your heart suit is not good enough for a jump to 3H. So you will have to rebid 2H. I would rebid 2H over 2D too. But as Steve pointed out, a simple 2H rebid after a 1NT rebid is not the end of the road. Partner with anything more than a minimum and a fit might raise, for he should know that you might have more than a minimum yourself without a suit of sufficient quality for a three level jump, and with significantly more than a minimum 2C rebid and a fit he surely will raise.

 

What if partner is weak with no support for Hearts? He will probably rebid 2S over 2Hs. If he does, the odds are good that he has 4 Clubs or more, so you can take preference back to 3C. If he bids 2NT, it should be better than minimum so with your three tricks, you would surely take a shot at game vul.

 

BTW, give me S-x H-AKT9x D-Axxx C-xxx and I probably will make a 2H initial response, just as steve did. It is that close.

[easy]

So x-AKxxx-Axxx-xxx  is good enough for 2/1 response. Interesting! I can see that, now that you point it out. But make it x-AKxxx-Kxxx-xxx (if you think that's not good enough, or something a little worse if you do, but still having invitational values). The real point of my question, obscured by my choice of hand, was is it wise/permissable for the responder to jump shift in hearts with invitational values not good enough for a 2/1 response, with a good 5 card (or OK 6 card) heart suit, given the fact that opener may well be 5-3-2-3, or is it better to follow the guideline and not bid it.  If you don't bid it, would you pass 2C with 3 small, or correct to 2S with 1. My thought would be to pass.

 

Although i would open x Akxxx Axxx xxx in any seat i dont agree that one should bid 2/1 with this hand. As far as we know this could be a misfit. Therefore bidding 1nt is perfect imho. 1nt forcing responses include hands that fall between 5+ and a bad 12 points. if over 1nt your partner bids 2c and u are playing no fancy conventions (such as BART) then your rebid should be 2nt (not 2h) which shows 10+ to 12 pts. Although you may not find your heart fit you will have given pard a pretty good description of your hand. If partner wishes to accept your 2nt inv. and has 3h ie xxxxx  xxx x  xxxx or xxxxx xxx xx xxx (where the diamond suit contains a worhtless doubleton) he will bid 3h on the way to 3nt.

A rebid of 2 of a new suit (after having responded 1nt) shows a weak hand with a 6 card suit. A rebid of 3 of a new suit shows an invitational hand with six+ cards and usually only 1card in pards major.

 

Mind u the above comments assume you are playing 2/1

100% forcing to game. If playing 2/1 almost forcing to game a rebid of 3 after a forcing nt has a different meaning. For example lets say you hold

 

x  AKJTxx   Qxx  xxx

 

playing 100% gf when partner opens 1s you should respond 1nt when pard rebids 2c u should then jump to 3h.

If on the other hand you play 2/1 almost forcing to game you would bid 2h over 1s planning on rebidding h over pards rebid.

 

Confused yet :)

 

Here is a rule i follow no matter what system of bridge my pard has me playing.

 

When we appear to have a misfit i bid conservatively. When we have fits i bid agressively.

 

Remember its always easier to convince your partner you have a little more than it is to convince him u have a little less.

[pbleighton]

As I understand it, unless I choose to go 2/1, I am forced with the choice of two fibs:

 

1) 2H (preferred by inquiry) - though my books (25 Steps to 2/1 byThurston and Understanding 1NT by Bergen) say this is weak, and not invitational, since it is at the 2 level (at the 3 level could be either) - so it's an underbid, but if partner has a fit and more than minimum values, he will invite.  You miss just marginal games where partner has maybe 15 revalued in support of hearts, but doesn't go because he thinks you are 10 or less (or does he go because he knows this underbidding is common, and is willing to risk 3?).

 

2) 2NT (preferred by easy) - in spite of no club stopper - I should have both unbid suits stopped according to both books - but life is full of flawed notrump contracts, and don't let that stop you.

 

So, if I am understanding correctly, this situation is a hole in 1NT Forcing, and I have to choose my fib. Correct?

[inquiry]

P said "1) 2H (preferred by inquiry) - though my books (25 Steps to 2/1 byThurston and Understanding 1NT by Bergen) say this is weak, and not invitational, since it is at the 2 level (at the 3 level could be either) - so it's an underbid, but if partner has a fit and more than minimum values, he will invite.  You miss just marginal games where partner has maybe 15 revalued in support of hearts, but doesn't go because he thinks you are 10 or less (or does he go because he knows this underbidding is common, and is willing to risk 3?).

 

 

Easy's 2NT has much merit, right on general balance and hcp value, but on the downside you are sure to miss a 5-3 H fit 100% of the time. Some prefer the 2NT rebid, the reason is if partner has 15-16 points, he will care to game, which is where you want to be.

 

The books are right, 2H is less than invitational stregth in general. But add one caveat... or a suit thatt is not strong enough to jump to 3Hs. If you keep that in mind you will do ok most of the time with a 2H rebid with this hand. With fit and anything more than minimum partner will raise most of the time. The reason being LOTT. If you are weak, you will frequently have 6 card suit. If partner has 3, that is nine. He will raise to 3 fairly often with the fit.  It is this LOTT thing that really swings me in favor of a light 2H instead of pretty normal 2NT rebid.

 

If partner is weak, with 5-1-3-4 2H will be as good as anything. If partner is weak with 5-1-2-5 or 5-0-3-5 or 5-0-4-4 he very well might try 2S, in which case you can bid 3C. These between hands are tough, which is why I said if I had the HAKT9x (T and 9) I would bid as steve did.... 2H, and which why easy and I disagree with what the best rebid is over 2C. But this hand evaluation is what makes bridge exciting, if we all bid the same, how boring that would be.

[easy]

P said "1) 2H (preferred by inquiry) - though my books (25 Steps to 2/1 byThurston and Understanding 1NT by Bergen) say this is weak, and not invitational, since it is at the 2 level (at the 3 level could be either) - so it's an underbid, but if partner has a fit and more than minimum values, he will invite.  You miss just marginal games where partner has maybe 15 revalued in support of hearts, but doesn't go because he thinks you are 10 or less (or does he go because he knows this underbidding is common, and is willing to risk 3?).

 

 

Easy's 2NT has much merit, right on general balance and hcp value, but on the downside you are sure to miss a 5-3 H fit 100% of the time. Some prefer the 2NT rebid, the reason is if partner has 15-16 points, he will care to game, which is where you want to be.

 

The reason being LOTT. If you are weak, you will frequently have 6 card suit. If partner has 3, that is nine. He will raise to 3 fairly often with the fit.  It is this LOTT thing that really swings me in favor of a light 2H instead of pretty normal 2NT rebid.

 

perhaps this belongs in a new thread but..........

Lott hummmm I remember when it became the rage. The first time i remember seeing it misapplied was at the local club. the auction went 1s p 2s p 4s down 2. The responder had 3 pts and 3 spades. When asked why they raised to 2 they responded because i wanted to follow the "law" ie: with 8 trump go to the 2 level.

The moral of this anecdote? The law has nothing , zero, nada to do with CONSTRUCTIVE bidding. It is used to determine whether or not one should compete to a given level (usually the 3 level) I say all this because if when playing my partner raises me with 3 trump and a 15ct after an auction that has proceeded

 

1s   1n

2c   2h        i will be very disappointed in my pards hand evaluation. Unless of course pard is 5 3 1 4 and his hand now values to something like 17+ in support of hearts. Lets say i have

 

x  KJxxxx xxx  Qxx

 

after partner raises me to 3 should i bid 4 or pass. If pard has the 17+ hand yes i should. if pard has a balanced 14 or 15 no i shouldnt. How am i to know which hand pard has?

 

miss 4h 100& of the time if one rebid's 2n. Not likely if you have a good partner. Yes u will miss 4h if pard has a minimun with 3h because they will pass 2n.Let me ask you how you would bid this hand

 

AJTxx   JTx xx  AKJ

Lets assume you chose not to open 1nt because either a) your one of those people that never open 1nt with a 5card major or :) you dont open 1nt with 5card major and worthless doubleton.or c) you never open 14pt nt (when playing 15-17)

 

1S   1n

2c    2h

?          r u really going to bid 3h with this hand?

 

on the other hand if pard had rebid 2nt wouldnt you want to accept his game try and on the way bid 3h?

 

And lets not forget those hands where we need to be in 3n when pard doesnt have hearts and has a good 14+. The only bid more discouraging than 2h is pass. Should partner with an unbalanced 14+ with a stiff heart pull the 2h bid to 2n only to find that 2h was the limit of the 2 hands? Or pass 2h and find that we had 11 hcp and bid 2h? No, i think not. Bidding 2 hearts makes pard's life much to difficult if you have an invitational hand and rebid 2h.

 

The law of total tricks is a good tool but bidding to the 3 level to show a 3rd h strikes me as a very bad idea in situations where pard has shown weakness. r we afraid that after 3 rounds of bidding the opponents will now balance in 3d after we have had an auction that is screaming misfit? Not likely.

[dageaux]

i agree with fred's comments concerning the pard who raised 1s to 2 with 3 trumps and a 3 count, and with what he says about the law's purpose. but i'm a big believer in the law both as a competitive bidding tool and as a preemptive one. so give the above hand one more trump and the same 3 count and i bid 3s almost every time. about the only time i wouldn't make that bid is when i'm flattish, but even then there's something to be said about setting the groundwork for an advance sac.

[hrothgar]

 

The moral of this anecdote? The law has nothing , zero, nada to do with CONSTRUCTIVE bidding. It is used to determine whether or not one should compete to a given level (usually the 3 level)

 

 

Unfortunately "CONSTRUCTIVE" bidding has little to do with bridge.

 

I've always found the whole concept of constructive bidding to somewhat bizzarre.   Trying to divide bidding sequences into "Constructive" or "Obstructive" or "Destructive" is a horrendous simplifying assumption.

[inquiry]

Easy said, "miss 4h 100% of the time if one rebid's 2n. Not likely"

 

I didn't say miss 4H in a 5-3 fit 100% of time, I said miss a 5-3 fit 100% of the time. I was thinking more about partscore with the 100% time remark, but while it is possible to get back into hearts with a careful partner with diamond shortness and game values.. these are just the hand partner will raise to 3H on. But a partner with a weak hand, you are going to be stuck in 2NT or maybe even 3C (if partner is 5-3-0-5) and weak with 4H laydown.

 

Again, our own experiences will effect our choice of bids. Steve bids 2H over 1S, easy and I bid 1NT over 1S but one bids 2N, one 2H over 2C. And I assure you, there is a lot of players who jump to 3H over 2C (they just haven't spoken up yet).

 

The important consideration is what will partner do over 2H. Playing with someone who bids 2H with this hand, raising is never necessary, so with 2over1 who bids 2H with a hand like this, if the auction goes 1S-1NT-2C-2H raising with three is probably never right. While playing with a partner who virtually always passes 2H bid, then a 2NT rebid is probablly better.

 

I don't handycap my partners thusly (by requiring that they must pass over 2H). However, over 2H I only expect three bids. PASS, 2S or 3H (never 2NT). If he rebids 2S then his Club suit was real and he can't stand hearts. So I can rebid 3C on the misfit. If he raise hearts (non-minimum, with heart fit, surely no more than 2D, maybe 1), now I bid game.

 

Would I expect a raise to 2H on the hand Easy gave?  Well change it to AJTxx JTx  x  AKJx, absolutely (changing diamond xx to x). Now how about the hand he gave (one less Club, one more Diamond)?  Since I bid 2H with the hand I actually held, the answer is again yes, but this would be a minimum. But then I pass one spade with

 

S-x  H-QTxxxx  D-xxx  C-Jxx  since if I bid 1NT, my silly partners almost always jump to 3S over this 1NT. So perhaps my 2H rebid minimum is better than some of other players.  I would bid 1NT with S-Jx H-QTxxxx D-xx C-xxx however, because if partner leaps to 3S, at least I have "support" .