What is 3Clubs

[inquiry]

The bidding goes....

 

1D - 1H

1S - 3C

 

What is the "standard meaning" of 3C's and or how do you play it. This seems to be very easy situation that I observe go awry three times today. The auction is either Standard Amercian or 2/1

[whereagles]

I never saw any textbook mentioning that sequence (because the autors are LAZY), but in practice most good player I know play it as 55 game forcing.

[EricK]

If fourth suit is GF then this should be 5-5 invitational (5-5 GF goes via 2♣ then 3♣). If FS is invitational plus then this should be 5-5 GF.

[pbleighton]

"If fourth suit is GF then this should be 5-5 invitational (5-5 GF goes via 2♣ then 3♣). If FS is invitational plus then this should be 5-5 GF."

 

Agree.

 

Peter

[Gerben42]

I learned that a jump in the 4th suit shows 5 - 5 and is GF, so I guess that is the "standard" meaning. Whether it is better to play it as invitational I don't know. Probably not though.

[kenberg]

I often suggest playing that all second round jumps by responder are invitational. No doubt this is less than optimal, but almost everyone plays that quite a few second round jumps by responder are invitational and so rather than working through all of them on a case by case basis and hoping everyone can remember which is which, I suggest that we play they are all invitational. Yes, this includes 1D-1S-1N-3H. If we want to force with 5-5 majors, we go through new minor.

 

This method seems to be mostly playable and does not tax the memory.

 

Of course if you are playing without discussion, you have a problem. I always hope I have the values to accept when this happens. If there is a "standard", I don't know it. However, if I were the responder after 1D-1H-1S and wanted to make sure partner would not drop me, I would bid 2C and then 3C. Of course he might drop me. But imo, even if fsf is only generally agreed to as a one round force, when it is followed by a three level bid in the fourth suit, opener should not pass. But w/o discussion, you take your chances.

 

"standard meaning"? Beats me.

[SoTired]

I agree with those that a 3-level non-reverse jump in the 4th suit is 5/5 and the opposite of whether 4th suit is game force.

 

Since I play 4th suit GF, I would take this invite.

 

I also agree with kenberg that all second round non-reverse jumps by responder are invitational. Makes it easier on the memory.

 

BWS has changed this particular sequence several times over the years.

 

HOWEVER - If I have never discussed this particular sequence with my partner before, I would treat it as forcing.

[kenberg]

To add to the confusion: I jsut looked the auction up for "Washington Standard": It's weak, with 6 clubs and 4 hearts. Not asking opener to do anything except, usually, pass. Obviously "Washington Standard" is not the same as "Standard". But it is not surprising that Ben saw three disasters in 1 day with this auction. Ask five people what it means, there is a fair chance you get five answers, all different. Maybe someone knows offhand what BWS says that it is. Edit: Oops, just saw Whereagles comment that it changes on BWS.

 

I have no idea what is best or what is standard. But playing each and every jump rebid (non-reverse) by responder as invitational saves on memory and saves on arguments.

 

I know not everyone plays nmf, but if they do it is sort of the same there. 1D-1S-1N-2C(nmf) -2H -3C is forcing, while jumping directly to 3C over 1N is invitational. Or at least as I play nmf. This is a further ease on the memory when the meaning of a fsf auction and the meaning of a sound-alike nmf auction are matched.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if a good case can be made for 3C being a sign-off with long clubs. Obviously it has merit, or it wouldn't be the recommended meaning in WS. I don't think of it as the standard meaning w/o discussion though.

[jdeegan]

:) Please, you guys tell me what it means. I have heard some people play it as an invitational 4-6 hand. Or a mini-splinter for spades. Or 5-5 invitational. Or .................. Aaaargh.

[mike777]

I looked it up in a couple of basic bidding books by Hardy (2/1) and Root (standard) and darn if I know how they play it. It may be in there but so hidden I give up.

[twcho]

I'm not sure about what is standard. But in my regular partnership, this is a splinter support of the 2nd suit bid by opener and GF.

 

Tommy

[BudH]

What a surprise - Alan Truscott's "Bidding Dictionary" says there is no standard meaning and gives five possibilities:

 

1. 5-5 invitational (if 2C would have been a game force)

2. 5-5 game force (if 2C then 3C would have been invitational)

3. mini-splinter

4. game forcing splinter

5. 4 hearts, 6 clubs, non-invitational

 

 

Bud H

[helene_t]

I think if there's any standard it is more likely to be 5-5 GF. As others have said, it is more logical to play the GF hand via 2♣ so this must be invitational.

 

Hardy plays "funny jumps" (weak 4-6) after a 1NT rebid and it would make some sense to play that here as well.

 

I voted for splinter as I play it as a mini-splinter in one partnership. No agreement in the other partnership.

[mikestar]

This depends on what 2C followed by 3C means, as well as the rest of your system. But the default* meaning should be natural and forcing. This meaning dates back to Culbertson's day is still advocated by many authorities, though there is clearly no consensus about the best way to play it.

 

*"Default"=assumed in absence of discussion: a more descriptive term than "standard", which carries implications of correctness.

[whereagles]

1. I think if there's any standard it is more likely to be 5-5 GF. As others have said, it is more logical to play the GF hand via 2♣ so this must be invitational.

 

2. Hardy plays "funny jumps" (weak 4-6) after a 1NT rebid and it would make some sense to play that here as well.

1. Sorry, but regardless of what Truscott says, I don't find it a good policy at all to play these jumps as 55 invitational. I think it's a long-term losing proposition to jump to the 3 level on 10-12 hcp when the risk of misfit is very high.

 

2. By the same token as above, I think "funny jumps" don't make much sense either. It's the same misfit problem, and, worst, this time you don't even have the 10-12 hcp. You have less.

[SoTired]

you hold Kxxx xx x KQxxxx... Your partner opens 1D, you respond 1S and your partner rebids 1N. 2C is NMF with game invitational strength (or better). So you "funny jump" to 3C is a signoff. If you don't have this bid available you have to pass 1N. Unless partner can setup and get to the clubs, your hand will not be too useful to partner.

 

If you have a balanced weak hand, you pass. If you are 5♠ and 5♣ invitational, you ignore the club suit and bid 2♣ NMF ending in either ♠ or NT, game or partial. If you are GF 5♠ and 5♣ you bid 2♣ followed by 3♣. All hands are covered with logical bids.

[Free]

I think we all agree that it is natural. The strength might depend on how strong 4th suit really is, but imo it's more logical to play it as GF.

[inquiry]

Well, as this poll and the responses show, this is not as clear as I thought it was. I assumed there would be two answers.

 

a) Game force, the two bid suits

B) Game invite, the two bid suits (each at least five)

 

Case b would be, I though, the common treatment if playing 4th suit forcing (otherwise, bid 4th suit then rebid it to force, so the jump is game invite). Since I assumed most people played 4th suit forcing, I assumed the vote would be overwhelming for case b.

 

Case a would be the situation if not playing fourth suit forcing (or so I thought). The three bids I saw were... 1) game force, 2) splinter, and 3) what lookied like preemptive!!! The onl one that the partner got right was the highly unusual preemptive bid in the 4th suit. Since none bid it the way I thought it should go, I thought I would ask.

 

For those of you playing 3C as GAME FORCE, do you play 4th suit forcing (or even new minor forcing or Xzy)?

[whereagles]

Yes, 4th suit forcing should still active even if "4th suit in jump = 55 GF". The difference is that 4SF non-jump is used when responder wants to support one of opener's suits, while 4SF jump is used to show a hand that would be difficult to show otherwise.

 

As for 2♣ 4SF followed by 3♣, it is something you have to agree with pard. It can be played as multitude of things, of course.

[bid_em_up]

Well, as this poll and the responses show, this is not as clear as I thought it was. I assumed there would be two answers.

 

a) Game force, the two bid suits

B) Game invite, the two bid suits (each at least five)

 

Case b would be, I though, the common treatment if playing 4th suit forcing (otherwise, bid 4th suit then rebid it to force, so the jump is game invite).  Since I assumed most people played 4th suit forcing, I assumed the vote would be overwhelming for case b.

 

Case a would be the situation if not playing fourth suit forcing (or so I thought). The three bids I saw were... 1) game force, 2) splinter, and 3) what lookied like preemptive!!! The onl one that the partner got right was the highly  unusual preemptive bid in the 4th suit. Since none bid it the way I thought it should go, I thought I would ask.

 

For those of you playing 3C as GAME FORCE, do you play 4th suit forcing (or even new minor forcing or Xzy)?

Simple logic dictates that if you are playing 4SF (GF), and you have a game forcing hand....then you use it and conserve bidding space at the same time. By using 4SF, you will also find out whether or not partner has either 3 card support for your 1st suit, OR a stopper in your (undisclosed) 2nd suit. This can be crucial knowledge when deciding to play 3N or not (or even 5/6 of your 2nd suit for that matter).

 

However, this requires a thorough understanding of hidden inferences (or non-inferences) that are contained in what bids partner makes, or doesnt make, after a 4SF bid, and then using this information to your best advantage. This skill is usually only achieved by higher level players. Which is why I believe that the higher skilled players will play this as 5-5 invitational.

 

This leaves all other non-conventional jump bids with a meaning of either 1) INVITATIONAL 5-5, or 2) preemptive (4-6). Since it is more crucial to bid games, I believe you will find most top players using the first method (unless they have some other way of making the differentiation between various hand types).

 

Personally, I think trying to use this sequence as a mini-splinter for openers 2nd suit will leave you poorly placed on too many other hands to offset any benefit it may gain, and would never even consider this to be a possibility.

 

As always....

 

jmoo.

[mikestar]

...  For those of you playing 3C as GAME FORCE, do you play 4th suit forcing (or even new minor forcing or Xzy)?...

Fourth suit forcing is such an obvious convention the some English writers have asserted that FSF is the natural meaning of a fourth suit bid.

 

I've played 3♣ as all three of the natural alternatives.

 

(1) Playing FSF Bill Root style (responder's second round jumps GF, FSF is mostly for invitational hands), 3♣ is 5-5 GF, 2♣ followed by 3♣ is 5-5 invitational.

 

(2) Playing the more usual FSF style where FSF is always GF or mostly GF, 3♣ is 5-5

invitational, 2♣ followed by 3♣ is 5-5 GF.

 

(3) Playing XYZ or other forms of two-way checkback, weak 4-6 is reasonable, as both the GF and invitational alternatives can go through 2♣/2♦.

 

When the fourth suit is diamonds, the same applies except in XYZ: there the weak 4-6 hand passes opener's mandatory 2♦ rebid over 2♣.

[kenberg]

The BBO FD card has the sequence as undefined. I have been thinking a bit. I don't doubt I am going down a well trod path, but here is what I now think:

 

Invitational: The problem here is that often, after 1D-1H-1S, with me 5-5 in hearts and clubs, my thoughts will be: "If pard has three hearts I would like to invite game. If he does not, I want to get out as cheaply as possible." Thus I don't really know if I want to invite at the three level.

A solution: Although I mostly like fsf to game, it seems there could be some specific exceptions such as 1D-1H-1S-2C-2D-2N. This would sens the message: I was planning on inviting if I found three hearts in your hand, but without that I doubt the hands fit well enough to play game unless you have a little extra.

 

 

This would eliminate the need for 3C as invitational 5-5. I think it could be played as showing invitational 6-4, with a good six card club suit. The message would be: I have some decent values and a pretty good suit, good enough so I can probably make 3C without a good fit from you. Feel free to leave me here, or bid on if you have the stuff to do so.

 

These meanings would cater to hands that come up with some sort of frequency.

 

I don't know xyz (actually I don't know quite a few things). Probably the above is part of some system somewhere.

 

Ken

[the hog]

I play this as 5/5 weak. Please pick a suit.

[AthosINT]

Hello everyone, i had a discussion once, it was between these 2 sequences :

 

1C 1H

1S 2D

2N 3D

 

what could be the difference with

 

1C 1H

1S 3D

 

 

Btw, I do not know how you see 4th forcing in the US, but in France it is not game forcing.

 

Anyway, everyone in france plays the second auction showing game forcing strength and the 2 suits shown are of good quality.

For instance :

AKJxx

x

AQxxx

xx

 

would be treated as in auction 2.

 

Auction 1 was weird. Why bidding 2d then 3d. It must be natural. But you could not bid 3D before. the only reason is that the hand is big but the D quality is not.

Like this :

AKJxx

A

Jxxxx

Ax

 

The idea is to warn partner about losers there before going to far.

[whereagles]

Btw, I do not know how you see 4th forcing in the US, but in France it is not game forcing.

Most french textbooks treat 4th suit as game-forcing if it's a reverse by responder, e.g.

 

1♦ 1♥

2♠ 2♣ <--- not GF

 

1♥ 2♣

2♦ 2♠ <-- GF: opener would have to support clubs at the 3 level