How do you reach this slam?

[mindofmike]

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=sk965ha6dkqj63caj&s=sahk74dat852ckq95]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

Opponents are silent throughout; some of our relevant conventions are inverted minors and RKCB.

 

Our sequence was a bit oversimplified:

1D-1S-2C-6D; partner decided to just shoot it.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Mike

[mike777]

I would just assume bidding a slam is ok even at MP so I would just make a game force raise in D and etc.......I do not think Kxxx of spades is really that great of a suit to introduce.

 

I would think about 6nt at MP if that is possible but just ignore finding 6s and never bid the suit.

 

 

1d=3c=game force in D for me (crisscross) but I assume you may have some other bid?

 

In this case bidding the grand should not be that tough.

[kenrexford]

I have a set of "pet" agreements. Using these, the auction is rather easy:

 

1♦ (whatever you want this to mean, 3+, 4+, or 4+ unbalanced)

2♣ (GF, no five-card major)

2♠ (both minors)

3♦ (diamonds agreed -- slammish)

3♥ (heart cue -- Ace, King, or stiff)

3♠ (spade cue)

4♣ (two of the top three clubs)

4♥ (RKCB)

5♣ (two -- no queen)

 

At this point, Responder can count four clubs, five diamonds, two spades, and a heart. That's 12 tricks. The heart control, if the King, is the 13th trick for 7NT; if a stiff, that's 13 at 7♦. The spade Queen might even be plausible.

 

5♥ (any unshown Kings?)

5NT (the heart control was the king)

 

That makes 7NT easy.

 

If the heart was stiff:

 

5♥ (any unshown Kings?)

6♦ (no -- I assume you know about the club situation)

6♠ (spade Queen???)

 

This gets you to the right grand.

 

If partner thinks he must show the club King again:

 

5♥ (any Kings?)

6♣ (this one, but not spades)

6♠ (well, how about the spade Queen?)

[inquiry]

This hand calls out for a game forcing 2♦ raise. My bidding would be...

 

1D - 2D

2H - 2S

3D - 3H

3S - 4C

4H - 4N

5H - 6C

7C - 7D

Pass

 

Explaination...

 

2D = GF

2H = unbalanced hand, singleton or void somewhere

2S = where is the singleton or void?

3D = short Spade

3H = cue

3S = cue, void or ace (3S over 2D would be singleton but not singleton ace)

4C = cue (1st or second control)

4H = cue (1st or second -- responder knows it is the King)

4NT = RKCB

5H = two no Diamond queen (also, not six diamonds, or would show DQ anyway)

6C = specific asking bid

7C = KQ of clubs

7D = to play.. partner has singleton SA, heart K, five diamonds to A, and KQ of clubs. PArtner can be 4H, 3C or 3H, 4C. Can count 5D, 2S, 2H, 3C. Can't be sure about the fourth club or fourth heart.

[uday]

I like to blast, myself ; but when i miss I don't like to worry about how to get to the best spot via a slower auction. I think when you blast you don't mind missing once in a while, bec. you are picking up something else once in a while.

 

I dont see the need to blast here.

 

I think 1S is normal: what if P has

 

AQJx xx Axxx Kxx

 

or some such, where you'd like to find the 44 spade fit for the grand?

 

After the 2C rebid, FSF (2H) seems normal , and 2N (?) by opener

then responder gets to bid 3D, GF, support.

 

This is when auctions tend to get murky for me, so not clear how to proceed. Dont know what 4D would mean instead of 3D (maybe strong slam signal in D? that would be nice!)

[kenrexford]

A large number of problems arise from the raise-diamonds-or-bid-major issue. This is the reason for the 2♣ artificial GF bid. Opener bids one-under a four-card major, allowing a GF auction with a major agreement at the two-level. Without a major, Opener bids 2♠ (minors), 2NT (bal.), or 3♣ (long diamonds) most of the time. Thus, bidding 1♠ on a four-piece and GF is unnecessary. A 1♠ response, if GF, shows 5+ in the suit. Thus, 1D-P-1♠-P-1NT-P-3NT shows a five-piece spade suit.

 

Had 7♠ been the right contract, Responder will have again bid 2♣, but Opener, with four spades, will bid 2♥, allowing spades to be agreed in a GF auction at 2♠ from Responder. Now, a world of cues are available.

[inquiry]

I am not sure standard is to bid a shorter suit when holding a longer suit and game forcing/slam invite values. However, if you wanted to start with 1S as responder, you could do it. I would guess

 

1D - 1S

2C - 2H*

3N - 4D

4H - 4N

5H - 6C

7C - 7N

Pass

 

2H = 4th suit forcing

3N = heart stopper, extra values

4D = set trumps, GF

4H = cue

4N = RKCB

5H = 2 no diamond queen

6C = specific asking bid

7C = KQ of clubs

7NT = 5D, 2S, 4C, 2H.

[Codo]

1 ♦ 1 ♠

2 ♣ 2 ♥

3 ♥ 4 ♦

4NT 5 ♣

5 ♥ 5 ♠

6 ♣ 7 ♦

 

1 Spade is a must, as PD may well have a 4432 hand, where Spades play much better.

2 Heart is 4sf, 3 Heart shows extra strength and short spades.

4 Dia. askes for KCs in Diamonds, Opener shows 2 without the Queen

5 CLub askes for kings, 5 Heart shows the K of Heart, no King of Spades

5 Spades askes for extras: 6 CLub Yes, K of Clubs

 

I won´t find out about the Queen of CLubs, so 7 Diamond is the GS I would reach.

[EricK]

Ir would start

1♦ 1♠

2♣ 2♥ (FS GF)

2NT 3♦

3♥ (Cue bid)

........4♦ (RKCB a la Kantar)

 

From here, responder can find two Aces, ask for specific Kings find both of them and count 13 tricks (5♦ 2♠ 2♥ 2♣ and 2 ♣ ruffs) so can bid 7.

 

I can find 7NT though.

[mike777]

I find so many of these auctions silly...............

 

 

I hope i can see all the cards......

[HeartA]

1♦ - 2♦ (D slam was almost sure, I would ignore the possible S fit)

3♣ - 3♥

3♠ - 4♣

4♦ - 4♥

4♠ - 4NT

5♥ - 5NT

7♦

 

3♣: natural or strength

3♥/...4♠: cue

4NT: RKC

5NT: King asking

7D: 2 side Kings

[mike777]

you seem to play 2d as unlimited....30+ hcp?

[HeartA]

you seem to play 2d as unlimited....30+ hcp?

Talking to me?

 

If so, my 2D shows 11+ HCP, D fit, (usually) denies majors.

[Echognome]

A large number of problems arise from the raise-diamonds-or-bid-major issue. This is the reason for the 2♣ artificial GF bid. Opener bids one-under a four-card major, allowing a GF auction with a major agreement at the two-level. Without a major, Opener bids 2♠ (minors), 2NT (bal.), or 3♣ (long diamonds) most of the time. Thus, bidding 1♠ on a four-piece and GF is unnecessary. A 1♠ response, if GF, shows 5+ in the suit. Thus, 1D-P-1♠-P-1NT-P-3NT shows a five-piece spade suit.

 

Had 7♠ been the right contract, Responder will have again bid 2♣, but Opener, with four spades, will bid 2♥, allowing spades to be agreed in a GF auction at 2♠ from Responder. Now, a world of cues are available.

The only thing I don't understand is why we are using pet agreements. I can say that I open this hand a strong club and relay to grand. This is in the SAYC and 2/1 discussion. The question is how you get there in standard methods. Maybe you can say, "This is how I would bid it using your methods, but if you are interested in some different methods I am happy to explain some to you."

[mike777]

you seem to play 2d as unlimited....30+ hcp?

Talking to me?

 

If so, my 2D shows 11+ HCP, D fit, (usually) denies majors.

ok 2d shows 11+ or 30+? they are the same.

 

huge diff from 11-13 or 14+

[sceptic]

maybe I am really dumb, But why would the bidding not start

 

1 diamond 1 spade 3 club

 

then some number of diamonds or 3 hearts or what ever takes your fancy and why would you not get to 7Daiamonds minimum or 7NT from one side after bidding keycard of some sort, someone knows they have extra values

[whereagles]

There's not much to comment.. 6♦ was a KISS approach, probably motivated by personality or psychological reasons.

[inquiry]

you seem to play 2d as unlimited....30+ hcp?

Talking to me? I play 2♦ as "virtually" absolute game force (quasi game force can come in effect on one auction.. quasi gane force is forcing only to 4♦, it is only limited on the bottom side, not the top. I use 1♦-3♣ as a limit (non-game force) diamond raise.

[kenrexford]

A large number of problems arise from the raise-diamonds-or-bid-major issue.  This is the reason for the 2♣ artificial GF bid.  Opener bids one-under a four-card major, allowing a GF auction with a major agreement at the two-level.  Without a major, Opener bids 2♠ (minors), 2NT (bal.), or 3♣ (long diamonds) most of the time.  Thus, bidding 1♠ on a four-piece and GF is unnecessary.  A 1♠ response, if GF, shows 5+ in the suit.  Thus, 1D-P-1♠-P-1NT-P-3NT shows a five-piece spade suit.

 

Had 7♠ been the right contract, Responder will have again bid 2♣, but Opener, with four spades, will bid 2♥, allowing spades to be agreed in a GF auction at 2♠ from Responder.  Now, a world of cues are available.

The only thing I don't understand is why we are using pet agreements. I can say that I open this hand a strong club and relay to grand. This is in the SAYC and 2/1 discussion. The question is how you get there in standard methods. Maybe you can say, "This is how I would bid it using your methods, but if you are interested in some different methods I am happy to explain some to you."

If you notice in the original post, the penultimate question was, "any thoughts?"

 

Hence, it would be technically responsive to respond, "I like ice cream."

 

More on point, i am not sure why anyone would be opposed to a suggestion to cure a recurring problem as a response, with an auction that works better than any shown so far. Sure, a relay structure or a strong club structure might also work. But, for those who prefer a basically natural 2/1 approach, consideration of the Golady treatment may be worthwhile. Using a difficult hand, one that Golady is powerful in resolving, to suggest this treatment has potential to also be beneficial.

 

Suppose some posted this problem. "I have trouble finding 4-4 major fits after partner opens 1NT. If I bid one, we sometimes end up in 4-3 fits. If I have 4432 pattern as Responder, which major should I bid first? Any thoughts?"

 

Might you suggest playing Stayman, even if the agreement was "natural responses?"

[bid_em_up]

Personally, I consider North's hand to be ideal for a 2♦ bid immediately. Inverted minors really are meant to be used for investigating hands that can envision:

 

1) a minor suit slam opposite a minimum opening, 2) 3N or 3) 5 of a minor/4 major.

 

This hand certainly qualifies. (Note, I normally open 1D on 4+, 1C on 2+, making it known immediately that there is at least a 9 card diamond fit for those concerned about a 5-3 fit).

 

Taking this approach, I firmly believe that the correct approach is then to cuebid controls up the line for minor suit slam exploration or to determine if there is an unstopped suit that would rule 3N out as an option.

 

1D-2D- 2H-2S-? At this point, South can bid 2N (which promises a club stop but not necessarily control) or could simply bid 3C (control showing) which is what I would bid.

 

1D-2D-2H-2S-3C-3H-3S-4C-? At this point, South knows that North holds the spade A, the heart K, and the club A. All he really needs to know is how many of the top diamonds does North hold.

 

5N (grand slam force)-7D (2 of top 3)-?.

 

At either form of scoring, I would rest in 7D. While you are reasonably sure of 13 tricks in diamonds, (5 diamonds, 3 clubs, AK hearts, AK spades, and either a club ruff in dummy/4 club tricks, or some number of spade ruffs in hand), it is entirely possible that the 13th trick is available only via ruffs.

 

If playing in an MP tournament and pushing for top late in the session, I might risk 7N, but believe you will win the majority of MP's for simply being in the grand to begin with, so there is no real need to risk it.

[mikeh]

Bypassing the ♠ suit is silly.

 

Majors score more than minors, and 4=4 fits with good 5=4 or 6=4 side fits often score an extra trick. Those who have espoused ignoring the possible ♠ fit are influenced by seeing the hands, or they are fundamentally poor bidders.

 

1♦ 1♠

2♣ 2♥

2N 3♦

 

 

gets the gf going and sets ♦ as trump. There are many ways forward from here, but both players have significant extra values.

 

one way

 

3♠ 4♣

4♦ 4♥

5♣ 5♠

6♣ 7♦

 

but there are others, and most players seem to need keycard at some stage :)

 

BTW, returning to the issue of ignoring ♠, how would responder feel if opener held something like AQJx xx KQxx Qxx.... now 6♠ is an excellent contract while 6♦ needs the ♣ hook should the opps make the likely lead of a ♥. Take away the ♣Q, and 6♠ remains a good contract while 6♦ has zero play.

[P_Marlowe]

Ône possible simple auction leading to 7D

 

1D 1S

2C 2H (1)

3NT (2) 4D(2)

...

 

(1) FSF,but inv.+

(2) max.,heart stopper

(2) natural forcing

 

Knowing that the partership holds

around 33HCP and a 9 card

Diamond Fit Responder can find

out about openers Aces and Kings

via an RKCB seq. and will bid ev. 7D.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

maybe I am really dumb, But why would the bidding not start

 

1 diamond 1 spade 3 club

 

<snip>

Hi,

 

simply ask yourself the question, what did responder

promise so that opener has the right to believe. that

the partnership has enough for game.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[kenrexford]

The problem with these hands is not best illustrated by these specific hands.

 

With 33 HCP's combined, slam should be found, whatever the start. Finding the right grand, with confidence, might be a problem without great tools, but that concern hardly justifies revamping initial calls.

 

The problem with how to respond is more difficult when the slam is remote from a HCP perspective, but on. On the pattern shown, you can toss out the spade Ace, spade King, club Jack, and club Queen, 10 HCP's, yielding a mere 23 combined, and 6♦ makes on a 2-1 diamond split, and maybe even with a 3-0 split.

 

Will Opener commit to a slam probe, or even seriously consider it, after a 1♠ response and a 1NT rebid, if Opener lacks the spade Ace and his clubs are K-empty? [x-Kxx-A10xxx-Kxxx] That might not even be opened.

 

Will Responder move forward with the equally disturbing loss of his values? [xxxx-Ax-KQJxx-Ax] Hardly.

 

Even if the answer is "maybe," how? 1♦ - 2♦ - ??? Who passes 3NT? Or, 1♦ - 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♥ - ???

 

Not likely.

 

Open, then set a GF, then show pattern (preferably submarine), and then set strain. The fastest to this point (lowest level) wins.

[starfruit]

Perhaps I missed it, but nobody seemed to mention any advantages regarding the blast.

 

I would personally like to play blasts like these as an attempt to hide as much information as possible, hoping that superior contract doesn't exist and that I'll be able to get a favourable lead.The extra overtrick that you gain from it would mean the difference between a top and an average. However here 6NT and 7♦ are still possible contracts so blasting seems like a bad idea.

 

First of all, unless you have some ways of uncovering a 4-4 major fit after an inverted minor, I don't see why you should reject trying for a major fit. Isn't this matchpoints after all? It's not difficult to construct hands where we can make 7♠ or even 6♠+1 where 6NT= is the limit in the other strain. It is only wrong when the combined hands are strong enough for 12 brute-force-tricks while there's a sure ♠ loser(usually due to missing ♠QJxxx). Fortunately, it's still possible to convert back to 6NT once we check upon the missing ♠Q so there's nothing that bad about searching for a ♠ fit.

(Edit : I realised there are some hands where you have both ♦ and ♠ fits, but there's a sure ♠ loser while you can make 7♦. Something like ♠Axxx♥x♦Axxx♣KQxx. But still, I think it's better to investigate for 7♠, which is the highest scoring contract if there isn't enough for 7NT.)

 

 

Next, if the 2♣ rebid has been standard (which it certainly looks like), that could be anything between 12-18 HCP.

Give him ♠AQ,♥K,♦A♣K and that's only 16 HCP with chances at grand, and he might have more than that.

Well, you could say that this is unlikely... but even with some minimum hands(say 12-13HCP), a combined hand of 30-31HCP with the 5th ♦ would give good play to 6NT, which is again a better scoring contract EVEN IF YOU MADE 6♦+1.

If you really need to blast, go for 6NT <_<

 

On this particular hand, reaching 7♦ should be easy.In fact once partner shows ♠A,♥K,♦A,♣K after RKCB ace and king ask, we know that his 4 major cards (since he showed 5♦ and 4♣) are covered and we have no minor suit losers.

 

As for 7NT, even if partner has ♠A,♥K,♦A,♣K,that only provides us a good play for 12 tricks, so it appears that the key is to check if partner has extras. Unfortunately, this might be difficult after 1♦-1♠-2♣-?. Depends on partnership methods I guess.

 

Lastly, blasting at IMPs is simply a bad idea. I've lost lots of IMPs just because I didn't bother to try for an unlikely grand.