4, 6 or 7?

[lowerline]

Your hand:

 

♠QJTxx

♥Ax

♦AJxxx

♣A

 

Partner opens the bidding. The opponents don't intervene.

 

1♥ - 1♠

3♥(1) - 4♣(2)

4♦(3)

 

1: shows a good suit (and roughly 13-15hcp)

2: advance cue (sets hearts)

3: cue

 

Your cues in unbid suits show A/K/single/void.

 

What is your next move?

 

Steven

[whereagles]

Hum.. there's the risk pard has a spade doubleton. Better bid 5♦ now (ace, obviously), and see if pard can bid 5♠ (should also show an ace).

[hrothgar]

As quaint as it might be, I'd going to trot out Blackwood

 

We don't have the space/methods to find a miracle 31 HCP grand...

[inquiry]

What would 3♠ by you over 3♥ be? Rebiddable spades or cue-bid agreeing hearts? I play it is spades, but then the implication if it is a cue-bid allows you to continue over 4♦ (partner must have a spade control to cue-bid diamonds if your 3♠ bid would be a cue-bid.

 

Having made a single slam try with 4♣, and not having a spade control (assuming 3♠ would have been spades rather than a cue), I will retreat to 4♥. If partner has a spade control, he will bid again. Partners yummy 13 to 15 can be this 15 point max...

 

xx KQxxxx KQ KQx

 

where you can lose 2S and 1H, or this 13 point minimum

 

AKx KQJxxx x xxx

 

where you have 13 top tricks (5S, 6H, 1C, 1D).

 

I think to bid 4♥ and he will continue with a spade control.

 

On first hand, auction

1♥ - 1♠

3♥(1) - 4♣(2)

4♦(3) - 4♥

Pass

 

on Second hand

1♥ - 1♠

3♥(1) - 4♣(2)

4♦(3) - 4♥

4♠ - 4NT

5♠ - 6♥

7NT

 

A little explaination for second auction, 5NT ask for specific kings, 6C woudl be club king, 6D would be diamond king, you can't show spade king safely below 6H, so the 6H bid just denies the minor suit kings. So partner has one or no diamonds (for the cue), and not the king of clubs (no 6C bid), to get to his 13, he needs the spade king. That maybe partial fantasy (what, findng the miracle 29 hcp grand... 2 less than richards miracle 31 grand), but you have to trust partner to continue with a fitting spade card and bid 4♥ over 4♦.

[SoTired]

4H

Even tho responder has extra strength and 3 aces, responder does not have a spade control and can't bid 4N without it. Opener could have xx KQJxxx KQx KQ (or even xxx KQJxxx KQ KQ and opps take 1st 3 tricks).

 

If you want to risk RKC, it is only worth it playing Kickback so you can find 7. So over 4D you would bid 4S as kickback RKC

1H 1S

3H 4C

4D 4S

5H 5S

5N 7N

4C,4D = q-bids

4S = kickback RKC

5H = 2 +♥Q

5S = specific king ask

5N = ♠K (nothing about ♣K or ♦K)

7N = I can count 13

[mike777]

rkc...kickback if possible but I am more worried about missing an ace and the queen of trumps.

 

I see many bid the slam missing both, is this standard?

[whereagles]

I'm not sure it's a good idea to simply bid 4♥ and leave pard with the responsibility of bidding on.

 

We know for sure want to be in slam if there is a spade control. Partner, however, may not be so sure of that and might pass 4♥ with a spade control.. especially if he already stretched to bid 3♥, which seems likely, given we have 3 aces.

[inquiry]

rkc...kickback if possible but I am more worried about missing an ace and the queen of trumps.

I would be stunned if partner could have a hand suitable for a jump to 3♥ opposite all the values I hold without either the KQ of hearts or the ACE of spades. Try to contruct some (with 8 hearts, assume he would jump to 4♥... so max seven.... remember, he can have at most one ace...

 

Kx KJT9xxx KQx x -- a goodish 12 hcp and good suit, but would this quailfy? I think not. This is almost about as "good" as he can have.... we can add the club king and take away a diamond...

 

Kx KJT9xxx KQ Kx -- now this is a jump to 3♥. But you have only two losers (and the heart queen might not be lost). And this is essentially the only hand that can be lacking both spade ACE and heart Queen (I guess you could have QJT8xxx of hearts so missing ace and king).

[SoTired]

Opener could have plenty of hands off a keycard and the ♥Q. Personally, I don't consider most 13-14 hcp hands with a 6-card suit worth a 3H rebid, but that is not the way the problem was presented.

 

I do not bid 6 off a keycard and the trump-Q. That is a 50% slam at best, not counting bad breaks and unlucky ruffs.

[mikeh]

Given the meaning attributed to 3♥ (which makes little sense to me even in a limited opening context.. the fact that perhaps all 16 point hands are opened, say, 1♣, does not make a 13 point hand take any more tricks than it does in standard methods, so bidding at the 3-level on a 13 count seems like a bad idea), it is all too possible that we do not have slam here.

 

Ben's arguments make sense in a normal context, but not with the unusual method in use here. So I join the 5♦ bidders... we will not miss a good slam after this move: I am denying a ♠ control, yet have pushed to the 5-level, so I must hold the trump A.

 

He might hold the miracle AKx KQ10xxx Kxx x, altho many big club players would upgrade that to a 1♣ opening bid. But I am not going to cater to that... after all, even on that hand, grand is dependent on a good trump split. So over 5♠ I bid 6♥, and over 5♥ I pass.

[kenrexford]

Whatever 3♥ has as a minimum is negated by the 4♦ cue. Otherwise, there is no solution -- your agreements are unworkable.

 

So, assuming a logical layout, I bid 4NT, RKCB. If partner bids 5♠ and I bid 5NT, he will be a fool to not bid the grand with AKx in spades. With the alternative of KQx in diamonds, he has a problem.

 

Thus, after 5♠, I bid 6♦. Now, either AKx of spades or KQx of diamonds should result in a grand slam bid.

 

Given my preferences, however, I use 5♦ directly after 4♦ as RKCB for diamonds. I expect KQ of hearts per agreement, so I do not need this info. Hopefully partner will be able to show two key cards (spade Ace and diamond King) plus the diamond Queen (6♣). If 5NT, instead, showing a missing diamond Queen, I'll bid 6♦, which should ask for the spade King.

[joshs]

Either 5D or 5H seems fine. I would bid 5D unless your partnership is a firm grounds on 5M raise auctions. (I play 5D as a slam invite showing a Diamond control and denying a spade control and 5H as a demand for partner to bid a slam with a spade control.)

[kgr]

For 5D bidders: Can't I bid 5C to show first control in C?

[whereagles]

Cuebidding rules aren't totally clear-cut here (unless you discussed that in detail with pard). 5♣ or 5♦ are more or less equivalent: they look for a spade control.

[hrothgar]

As Ben notes, its critical to know what 3♠ would have shown....

 

If the 4♣ denies a 1st / 2nd round Spade, then partner's 4♦ cue bid promises a spade control...

[mikeh]

For 5D bidders: Can't I bid 5C to show first control in C?

You have already cue bid 4♣. Partner has made a cue (4♦) which could be interpreted by you as 1st or 2nd round control... were you looking at QJxxx Axx x AKxx, you'd be hoping it was first round control.

 

Partner doesn't know that you know that he was cue bidding 2nd round ♦ control... so he will hold back unless you can reassure him, and the way to do that is to cue 5♦.

 

Furthermore, the 5♦ cue has the added attraction of focussing on the need for a ♠ control.

 

If you held the minor Aces, a ♠ control, and 5-level safety, as evidenced by your 5♦ cue, you would have been able to use keycard.

 

OTOH, were you to cue 5♣, you would leave partner in doubt as to the ♦ suit, and he will NOT be able to bid beyond 5♥ if he has, for example, Kx KQJxxx KQx xx.. he will be concerned that you are off two aces.. if you say that you wouldn't bid 3♥ with that hand, I refer you to the conditions of contest.

[awm]

It seems like 3♥ must pretty much set hearts in this auction if 4♣ is an advanced cuebid. Many people have also mentioned that bidding 3♥ with 13-15 hcp seems weird. I'd bet that in these methods the 3♥ call is almost always a seven-card suit, something like:

 

Ax KQJTxxx x Kxx

 

Such a hand is not all that ridiculous a 3♥ call with seven good hearts and only five losers. In the context of a strong club system (or gazilli or whatever) this is the sort of "13-count" I'd expect as a 3♥ rebid. It's difficult (almost impossible) to construct hands with only six hearts where you'd want to rebid 3♥ on 13-14 points.

 

Of course, something like:

 

xx KQJxxxx KQ Kx

 

is also possible, and you want to stay in 5♥ with this hand off two top spades. And of course this hand will give the same response to keycard as:

 

Kx KQJxxxx x KQx

 

So I agree with the majority that you need to make some cuebidding call to focus on spade cards (unless 3♠ would've been a cue and 4♦ thus guarantees a spade control). Bidding 5♦ seems most reasonable (reassuring partner about the minors and suggesting that only a spade control will be needed for slam).

[lowerline]

Since there have been some questions about the methods, let me clarify:

 

* All hands with 16+hcp are bid via 2♣. Any jump rebid is a picture bid. The 3♥ rebid shows a very good suit: a 6+crd headed by KQJ or KQT in this case.

Namyats is on the CC as well.

* 3♠ would have been natural, not a cue.

 

I think that any 5-level cue now draws the attention to the missing spade cue. I agree with Mikeh's explanation why 5♦ is better than 5♣. Nobody mentioned 5♥ though... What should that mean in this situation?

 

As a side note: do you agree that a 4♥ rebid (i.s.o. 3♥) by opener should show spade tolerance?

 

Steven