SAYC Bidding Problem

[jdeegan]

[hv=d=s&v=e&s=skq1065ha42d8653ck]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1♠-P-2♣-2♦

P-P-2♥-P

????[/hv]

Your bid. Do you agree/disagree with my bidding so far?

[sceptic]

I would open 2 spades or I would pass, which is probably what I would do, I dont see me in this auction <_<

[awm]

Well, 2♥ really should be forcing here. I'd bid 2♠, which can't be a great hand since I didn't bid it over 2♦.

 

I agree with Sceptic that I wouldn't open this hand, but it's not so far from an opening that the bidding problem isn't reasonable.

[whereagles]

Not sure if responder is 10-12 or game forcing, but I might bid 3♦ nonetheless. Either that or 2♠ if there's a chance pard won't understand 3♦.

[Codo]

There is no chance, that pd would misunderstand 3 Diamonds, so the choice is: Does Pd has a decent hand? Bid 3 Diamond.

Does he have 10-12? Bid 2 Spade.

 

BTW: What does 2 Heart promise? If he has say 2425 or 2416, why didn´t he double? Had this been penalty? Is this the answer to the question?

 

I think with a real good hand, he could have made a little more, so I bid 2 Spade now.

 

And this would have been always a hand for an opening bid for me....

[P_Marlowe]

Well, 2♥ really should be forcing here. I'd bid 2♠, which can't be a great hand since I didn't bid it over 2♦.

<snip>

Since Pass was forcing, your Pass simpy showed

interest in looking for a penalty, i.e. bidding 2S now,

may even show a stronger hand, than if you would

have bid it direct.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I Pass.

 

2H does not promise add. values,

since Pass was forcing.

I have garbage, I am content to have

found a resting place.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I am not reallysure, I would have

opened, but if you do, and if this is your

partnership style, than the bidding so far,

was fine.

[EricK]

Hi,

 

I Pass.

 

2H does not promise add. values,

since Pass was forcing.

I have garbage, I am content to have

found a resting place.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I am not reallysure, I would have

opened, but if you do, and if this is your

partnership style, than the bidding so far,

was fine.

Do you really have garbage? You have the K (albeit singelton) in partner's first suit; the Ace and some length in his second; three of the top five honours in your suit and no wasted values in ♦.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I Pass.

 

2H does not promise add. values,

since Pass was forcing.

I have garbage, I am content to have

found a resting place.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I am not reallysure, I would have

opened, but if you do, and if this is your

partnership style, than the bidding so far,

was fine.

Do you really have garbage? You have the K (albeit singelton) in partner's first suit; the Ace and some length in his second; three of the top five honours in your suit and no wasted values in ♦.

Ok, ignore the word garbage, although

since I promised an opening bid, I still

think I am min.

But ask yourself, where do you wanna go?

 

3NT? After partner failed to make

a dbl?

hearts, clubs, spades?, in a 7 card fit?

(If we ignore the possibility of a 6-5

distributon with partner.)

 

Game may be on, but I woul bet my

money on it, that anything higher than

the 3 level is going down.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[keylime]

I open 2♠ for starters. However I prefer disciplined preempts.

[kenberg]

I guess being non-vul and holding spades I would open 1S although I now wish I hadn't and can well see why someone wouldn't.

 

Now I bid 3H. Since no one else chose this, I'll explain:

 

If I open 1S and partner bids 2C (not gf in Sayc, but a decent hand) then, over 2D, I'll bid my hearts anytime I have four of them. I don't think it shows even a Jack extra. Partner has values, I have values, I'll bid my shape. Ergo, when I pass 2D I don't have four hearts. It could be best to pass 2H but I really don't think I can, and my pass of 2D followed by my raise to 3H should clarify the situation for partner. If 3H is already too high, that's tough, but he bid hearts, my hearts are about as good as they can be after my pass of 2D, so 3H it is. He might pass and make it, he might (unlikely) now bid 3N, he might now bid 3S (hopefully on Ax and good stuff), etc.

 

My rho has come in vulnerable against not, at imps, against the auction 1S-pass-2C. Looking at my diamonds, I seriously doubt partner has many.

[Al_U_Card]

If my pard bids 2 over 1 and then reverses, I will not drop him. This leaves me with the choice of bid 3D looking for a stopper, raise to 3H, (he takes the tap in D) or rebid 2S promising 6?

 

I choose the lesser of all evils and show support with support....3H. He will bid 3N if it is right.

[EricK]

Would we be in a better situation if we had passed originally?

 

I imagine the bidding would have started P (P) 1♣ (1♦) 1♠ (P). Now partner will probably not be strong enough to reverse (if he is then anybody who passes in the original problem has made the wrong choice!), so will probably rebid 2♣. Now what are we going to do? maybe cuebid 2♦ and get 2♥ from partner. So we are in the same situation as in the OP.

[SoTired]

Bidding fine so far.

Responder's 2H is a new suit. That is 100% forcing. We cannot pass.

 

Our pass of 2D says, "I don't have a good bid here." So what have we denied so far? 4♥, 4♣, 6♠, and a ♦ stopper. We have to bid, so bid 2S, our cheapest bid, which says, "I still don't have a good bid here."

 

3H is tempting but responder will be tapped in diam. If our hand was KQxxx Axx xx Kxx, 3H would be OK.

[flytoox]

3H. Perfect. By passing RHO's 2D I denied 4 card heart so my raise shows 3 cards exactly.

[HeartA]

I would bid 2S which doesn't promise 6 since I didn't bid it over 2D. I would support H in the next bid.

[jdeegan]

:P Thanks for all of your wise and perceptive responses. This was an awkward hand to bid, but I think the overwhelming vote for either 2♠ (best imo) or 3♦ (fine if you don't like 2♠ for some reason) echo the voices of reason. My thoughts were that partner held one of three types of hand:

 

1. (5% of the time) 5-6 in the round suits - this will take care of itself regardless

2. (75% of the time) 4-5 or 4-6 in the rounds, or

3. (20% of the time) 2-3-3-6 or 1-3-3-6 and too good to bid 3♣ which might be passed in SAYC

 

This makes raising hearts an absolute no, no since the diamond tap will be in the wrong hand. Passing is very, very wrong since my submini dog of an opener is OK now that pard has bid clubs. I like 2♠ with the good 5 bagger. 3♦ is a survival bid, and should work OK.

 

The opposite hand:

 

AJ

KJ107

A10

J9862

 

3NT makes if you finesse the overcaller for the heart queen. 4♠ can be beaten with a trump out, otherwise it makes if you guess the heart. 4♥ goes down on a 4-2 trump split even if you do guess the heart.

[the hog]

2H is of course forcing, so you cannot pass. The 1S opening is fine, this is far too good to open 2S with this number of controls. You now have an obvious 2S bid. To those who suggest that your pass in the auction suggested looking for penalties..I don't know from where you dreamed this up! No way Jose.., it just showed a minimum opening.

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

 

The opposite hand:

 

AJ

KJ107

A10

J9862

 

3NT makes if you finesse the overcaller for the heart queen.  4♠ can be beaten with a trump out, otherwise it makes if you guess the heart.  4♥ goes down on a 4-2 trump split even if you do guess the heart.

You forgot to mention that 2D goes

down, -2 most of the time, which will

net 500, if responder doubles.

 

 

Your game contracts need correct

guessing, and since I quite often guess

wrong, I take happily my plus score

defeating 2Dx,

... and I will take my plus score in 2H,

altough I would ask partner why he did

not dbl 2D.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I take it, that responder would also bid the

same without the Jacks, and at least the Jack

of spade is needed to make 3NT playable,

unless you will rely on spades 3-3.

[kenberg]

After 1S-pass-2C-(2D)-pass-pass responder knows that he has fitting values in my spades, he knows that we do not have an eight card major suit fit, he knows he has 14 points, he knows that he stops diamonds. If I understand your argument correctly, he does not at this point consider 3NT, but after he bids 2H and gets a 2S rebid from me he then knows to play in 3NT. Why is that?

 

By the way, the overcaller, unless he is nuts, has at least six diamonds and the ace of clubs. I am playing him for heart shortness and losing the finesse.

 

Added later: And if pard bids 3H over 2H, certainly now 3NT is reasonable, showing a diamond control and offering the choice of the 4-3 fit or 3N. Partner will have no trouble choosing.

 

I have no strong disagreement with 2S instead of 3H, although I prefer 3H. It shows more of what you hold, and it should get you to 3N. I don't care so much for 3D since I think that should be something where you can place a pretty strong bet on nine tricks assuming only that partner controls diamonds. With scattered values as are held in opener's hand, I think it better to continue showing where the values are rather than just ask for a D stop. I don't think 3D is awful, but I would rank the choices 3H, 2S, 3D. Nothing I see in the hands changes my mind about this.

[jdeegan]

:( I wish we could have nailed the rascals in 2♦, but I couldn't find a double of the overcall. It looked a lot like overcaller was a favorite to win six trump tricks despite (or because of) my four card holding. His chances of catching two additional tricks were too good despite my partner's two over one SAYC response.

[bid_em_up]

I would pass initially. Since the problem doesnt give me this option, I will bid 2♠ now.

[BudH]

Since I passed 2♦ and would nearly always rebid 2♠ on a 6-card suit or 2♥ on a 4-card suit (or longer), I think a heart raise should be expected to be on honor third.

 

I suspect 2♦ doubled may have been the best spot, but too late for that now. I'm rebidding 2♠, and expecting to bid 3♥ next.

 

 

 

 

Bud H

[inquiry]

Partner could have reopened with a double to show hearts, and modest values. This new suit by responder is forcing, and on this auction, really should be forcing to game. I will rebid 2♠ here and see what partner has to say, and will show delayed heart support next (playing in hearts in a 4-3 fit is not going to be good, given my four small diamonds. Diamond leads can force partner.

 

I am stunned that anyone playing sayc will pass this 2♥ bid.

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

I am stunned that anyone playing sayc will pass this 2♥ bid.

<snip>

And I am stunned, that everyone except

me is bidding.

The main issue is: On which hands do you

expect partner to dbl, and on which do you

think he ought to bid.

With the given partner hand, I expect partner

to double.

 

For me partner in essence denied

a diamond holding worth a stopper

(he may hold the single Ace) => 3NT is out,

primary spade support => no 8 card fit in spades,

a strong 5-5 distribution => i.e. we have a 7 card fit

in hearts at best,

i.e. if I shall bid on, where do I wanna play?

 

I wanna go plus, hence I pass.

 

You may rightful argue, that the above statements

are not valid in your partnership, thats fine with me

and I can understand that you bid on.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe