Power hand and partner trust

[Gpm_bg]

you hold

 

♠AJ10xx ♥- ♦Qxx ♣AQJxx

 

 

you open 1♠ pas 4♠ from the partner

all 4 on the table friendly pass or you start the engine ;)

 

what next ?

 

and mostly, do you should trust on partner desicion or will hope the he/she misjudge your open hand ?

[whereagles]

If 4♠ is a strong bid (12-14 hcp), then 5♣.

If 4♠ is a weak bid (0-7 hcp, shape based), then pass.

If you don't know what 4♠ is, pass :)

 

Simple ;)

[ochinko]

I need to know two things:

 

1. Do we play Bergen raises? If we do, I pass.

 

2. Do we play exclusive Blackwood? If we do, I bid 5H.

 

If both answers are negative, I bid 5C as the lowest possible cue-bid.

[david_c]

I pass. Slam might be on (particularly if partner is short in diamonds) but it doesn't seem very likely and the 5-level is dangerous.

 

You're worried that partner might turn up with an opening hand? There's not much you can do about that. If you play for that to have happened and it turns out you were wrong then you'll look very foolish. So for reasons of partnership harmony and your own sanity, play for partner to be bidding normally. Besides, even if partner does have a strong hand you might not be making twelve tricks.

[ochinko]

I pass. Slam might be on (particularly if partner is short in diamonds) but it doesn't seem very likely and the 5-level is dangerous.

 

You're worried that partner might turn up with an opening hand? There's not much you can do about that. If you play for that to have happened and it turns out you were wrong then you'll look very foolish. So for reasons of partnership harmony and your own sanity, play for partner to be bidding normally. Besides, even if partner does have a strong hand you might not be making twelve tricks.

I can't consider pass even for a second. Partner thinks we have a game with a normal seven loser hand from me. I have two losers less, which is translated to two tricks more with enough certainty.

 

If partner was too weak for his/her bid, I can always try and find another partner, or try to talk in order to see if we can find an agreement. But if I pass a strong 4S raise here, partner would rightly avoid playing with me anymore. Trust is extremely important, and pass looks like an insult to partner.

[Free]

This depends on system agreements about 4♠. I have nothing than losers in ♦ and I have no idea how strong partner is.

 

I suppose 4♠ should be played as a weak 'preemptive' support, so pass seems clear in most situations.

[Gpm_bg]

i didn't resist for regret and ;)

yes, we play bergen raises

no, for exclusive blackwood

 

partner hold:

 

♠Qxx ♥AKxxx ♦xxx ♣Kx

 

i bid 5♣ and if he was bid 5♥, with my void ♥, i should stop on 5♠,

K♠ was good and the game is so so safety

but he bid 5♠ and i hoped that he also don't have ♥control,

and raise to 6♠, not penalised but down for regret.

[ochinko]

i didn't resist for regret and ;)

yes, we play bergen raises

no, for exclusive blackwood

 

partner hold:

 

♠Qxx ♥AKxxx ♦xxx ♣Kx

 

i bid 5♣ and if he was bid 5♥, with my void ♥, i should stop on 5♠,

K♠ was good and the game is so so safety

but he bid 5♠ and i hoped that he also don't have ♥control,

and raise to 6♠, not penalised but down for regret.

With such hands I sometimes bid a cunning 2D because searching for another 5:3 fit is somewhat pointless, and partner would still bid 2H with 5-4. From time to time LHO would indeed try a heart sacrifice, and I can only hope that partner doesn't bid 5S just because he was 1-6-3-3 :)

 

And, of course, opps are not likely to lead a diamond when I do that, so our chances to make 4S increase.

 

Bidding a slam without a first or second round control in diamonds would be slightly less suicidal if you do it directly. You should at least not draw a map to defenders.

[P_Marlowe]

i didn't resist for regret and  ;)

yes, we play bergen raises

no, for exclusive blackwood

 

partner hold:

 

♠Qxx  ♥AKxxx ♦xxx ♣Kx

 

i bid 5♣ and if he was bid 5♥, with my void ♥, i should stop on 5♠,

K♠ was good and the game is so so safety

but he bid 5♠ and i hoped that he also don't have ♥control,

and raise to 6♠, not penalised but down for regret.

Hi,

 

since you play Bergen raises, the 4S bid

violates the partnership agreement.

 

Not knowing that partner violated our

agreements, I pass.

If I know, that he violates our

agreements regular, all bets are off,

but I would like to know before hand.

It would also help, if you stated the

agreement in place.

 

For what's it worth, I would treat the given

hand as inv. with 3 trumps.

And I would just do that.

If your partner belives, that the hand is worth

a game force, thats fine as well, in which

case he should bid 2H followed by 4S.

=> Your void opposite his long suit, would

prevent you from going overboard.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[bid_em_up]

2. Do we play exclusive Blackwood? If we do, I bid 5H.

5♥ is not exclusion blackwood in this sequence.

[ochinko]

2. Do we play exclusive Blackwood? If we do, I bid 5H.

5♥ is not exclusion blackwood in this sequence.

You mean it's just a cue-bid? Why would you cue in hearts if you don't have controls in the minors? Care to show an example hand that would push towards a slam with no stoppers in the other two suits?

[bid_em_up]

2. Do we play exclusive Blackwood? If we do, I bid 5H.

5♥ is not exclusion blackwood in this sequence.

You mean it's just a cue-bid? Why would you cue in hearts if you don't have controls in the minors? Care to show an example hand that would push towards a slam with no stoppers in the other two suits?

In a word, No.

 

Instead why dont you look at the hand in question and tell me where your diamond control is. 'Cause I sure dont see one.

 

While a 2nd call isnt out of the question, you need to find out if partner has a diamond control or not. I think the best way to do so is to simply cue 5C and let them show diamond control if they have one. If they do so, now you can bid 5H.

 

Why complicate things that dont need to be complex?

[Free]

Change your methods if your partner bids 4♠ on such hands. You can't make any decent decision if 4♠ is so strong... Swap your ♦s and ♥s and you almost have grand, now you can even go down in 5♠!

[ochinko]

2. Do we play exclusive Blackwood? If we do, I bid 5H.

5♥ is not exclusion blackwood in this sequence.

You mean it's just a cue-bid? Why would you cue in hearts if you don't have controls in the minors? Care to show an example hand that would push towards a slam with no stoppers in the other two suits?

In a word, No.

 

Instead why dont you look at the hand in question and tell me where your diamond control is. 'Cause I sure dont see one.

 

While a 2nd call isnt out of the question, you need to find out if partner has a diamond control or not. I think the best way to do so is to simply cue 5C and let them show diamond control if they have one. If they do so, now you can bid 5H.

 

Why complicate things that dont need to be complex?

Voidwood may seem unnecessary complex, as you're not strong enough to have any hopes for a grand. But it also puts a bigger burden on the defense than 5C. It could turn out that 5S or 6S make only on a bad lead.

[Gpm_bg]

in addition of up saying words

 

with that card i also will find other bid not closing 4♠

even if you playing SAYC where hand is limited not like 2/1

sometimes fast reaching of contract is tempting for partner to express him abbility of guessing partner habits.

In any kind of bridge pair is good if only one of them have passion of flying, if both of them are flyboys, will be hard to stop at secure level.

If aggresive half of bridge pair bid signoff bid 4 major, or 3NT for other player is easy to throw the pass carton.

I have friend who said that even on 1♥/♠ 2♥/♠ bid he almost everytime accept as invite becouse as he told : "Only with stupid hand i wouldn't accept it, and most of cases i didn't open with stupid hand " ;)

Elementary logic but everyone have right to think as he like.

Bidding 1 - 4 and 1nt 3nt are normal, but beauty of the game is in travelling through the levels and to examine partner.

No slam or game obligation, is there only good bids and good contracts.

[HeartA]

i didn't resist for regret and :lol:

yes, we play bergen raises

no, for exclusive blackwood

 

partner hold:

 

♠Qxx ♥AKxxx ♦xxx ♣Kx

 

i bid 5♣ and if he was bid 5♥, with my void ♥, i should stop on 5♠,

K♠ was good and the game is so so safety

but he bid 5♠ and i hoped that he also don't have ♥control,

and raise to 6♠, not penalised but down for regret.

With such a holding, I would NEVER bid 4S immediately. I would start with 2H.

[TheoKole]

In my opinion, it is a mistake to raise to game DIRECTLY, with balenced opening bids and support for partners suit, even though I see it happening all the time by different opponents.

 

A 1 ♥ - 4 ♥ or 1 ♠ - 4 ♠ bid, is best played as long trump support with shape and few high cards, and partner will never have any hesitation to pass.

 

You can use

- Jacoby 2 NT after a major opening to describe a 4 card fit with game going points and balanced hand,

- splinters to describe a 4 card fit with game going points and a side singleton or void,

- a delayed game raise to describe an opening bid with 3 card support.

 

Partner should have a very good idea what to do after each of these bids if you use them all.

 

With a pick-up partner I would pass in this situation, a quote by Barry Crane comes to mind,

 

"If you ever need partner to have a specific magic hand, he won't have it"! :lol:

 

Cheers, Theo

[mikeh]

i didn't resist for regret and  :lol:

yes, we play bergen raises

no, for exclusive blackwood

 

partner hold:

 

♠Qxx  ♥AKxxx ♦xxx ♣Kx

 

i bid 5♣ and if he was bid 5♥, with my void ♥, i should stop on 5♠,

K♠ was good and the game is so so safety

but he bid 5♠ and i hoped that he also don't have ♥control,

and raise to 6♠, not penalised but down for regret.

Both you and your partner should read some basic books on bidding: this is not intended to be condescending, but NO good player would bid 4♠ with this responding hand and no good player would bid on with your opening hand.

 

When playing a standard method, the raise to 4♠ is typically less than 9 or 10 points (may be a LOT less) and typically shows 5 card ♠ support and often a singleton somewhere: it is a pre-emptive bid that also carries with it an expectation of 10 tricks.

 

Qxxxx x KJxx xxx would be a decent 4♠ raise.. if we can't make game, they can probably make something, so the jump is in order as a 2-way shot.

 

When responder has an opening hand, responder should be thinking of making informative, descriptive bids: thus the usual bid here would be 2♥, intending to support ♠ next... thus desribing to opener a hand with game force values, 5+♥ and decent ♠ support....

 

If playing a limited method, such as a forcing club system, the raise to 4♠ is much wider in range because opener cannot hold a big hand. Now the big club bidders can have an opening hand OR a standard type hand... the beauty is that the opps are in the dark.

 

But they can do this because opener is essentially barred from trying for slam after 4♠. Responder will not jump to 4♠ with any hand that has any significant thought of slam opposite a good 1♠ opening bid.

[HeartA]

...because searching for another 5:3 fit is somewhat pointless, ...

To search for another 5-3 fit might land you a slam with "game strength" ( That is what 2-suit RKC for). Say, pd opener holds, AKxxx, QJx, x, Axxx,

or the like.

[the hog]

i didn't resist for regret and  :lol:

yes, we play bergen raises

no, for exclusive blackwood

 

partner hold:

 

♠Qxx  ♥AKxxx ♦xxx ♣Kx

 

i bid 5♣ and if he was bid 5♥, with my void ♥, i should stop on 5♠,

K♠ was good and the game is so so safety

but he bid 5♠ and i hoped that he also don't have ♥control,

and raise to 6♠, not penalised but down for regret.

I would have passed 4S as slam is too unlikely.

Your partner's 4S bid is very poor; he has an obvious 2H bid. The point of bidding 2H is not to find another 5-3 fit, but rather to investigate how the 2 hands fit together. That is why Ochinko's 2D bid is fatuous - it does nothing to diagnose a possible double fit.

[Gpm_bg]

Your partner's 4S bid is very poor; he has an obvious 2H bid. The point of bidding 2H is not to find another 5-3 fit, but rather to investigate how the 2 hands fit together.

Good point and i'm agree that 4♠ is very poor even in limited SAYC open force.

Investigating game is not curiosity for me, it's just a way to let some of both partner just to say : Simple game, welldone p.

Bidding through the levels is the core of the game bridge. That's why as i say up, i use that kind of bids 1-4 and 1-3 rarely( ofcourse without intereferense from opponents ). Hiding game from the ops hide beauty and from partner.

[ochinko]

i didn't resist for regret and  :rolleyes:

yes, we play bergen raises

no, for exclusive blackwood

 

partner hold:

 

♠Qxx  ♥AKxxx ♦xxx ♣Kx

 

i bid 5♣ and if he was bid 5♥, with my void ♥, i should stop on 5♠,

K♠ was good and the game is so so safety

but he bid 5♠ and i hoped that he also don't have ♥control,

and raise to 6♠, not penalised but down for regret.

I would have passed 4S as slam is too unlikely.

Your partner's 4S bid is very poor; he has an obvious 2H bid. The point of bidding 2H is not to find another 5-3 fit, but rather to investigate how the 2 hands fit together. That is why Ochinko's 2D bid is fatuous - it does nothing to diagnose a possible double fit.

I agree that 2♥ is the correct bid. It's just that it works only for specific distributions in partner's hand - like the one HeartA pointed out.

 

While I dreamt of writing a bidding bot, I don't bid like a bot myself. Here are two examples from last night:

 

1. Both vuln, you're in 2nd position after a pass

 

K3

Q9

KJ75

AJ1072

 

I was the only one that opened 1NT (15-17). Only one other player reached 3NT from my side, but the pair explained all their cards, and opps found the spade lead from 92, and it went two down.

 

2. Again both vuln, you're in 3rd after two passes

 

J73

J8

94

AKQJ43

 

I was the only that opened 3♣ instead of 1. Opps stopped in 3♠ for +1. On most of the tables they played 4♥ for +2.

 

I certainly don't pretend to be a bidding genius, but I am happy when I could find a non-trivial bid that works.

[the hog]

I'm afraid your second example proves nothing at all. Against whom were you playing?

 

Personally I would not open the first hand with 1NT. Sure you have a 5th C, but the Hx Hx holdings suggest the hand should be downgraded, not upgraded. I would open 1D, but most would open 1C.

 

Further, both of the posted examples do nothing to add to the hand being discussed. You would look stupid if your partner raised your 2D bid to 5, wouldn't you, or if he splintered in support of Ds? Now try convincing him that any S bid is a place to play rather than a cue bid.............

[whereagles]

Actually, playing limited openings, that Qxx AKxxx xxx Kx is quite the textbook example of an ambiguous 1♠-4♠ :rolleyes:

 

But if 1♠ is of the usual 11-22 hcp kind, a straight 4♠ is clearly a technically inferior bid.

[Gpm_bg]

Another exaple

 

you hold

 

♠Q10xxx ♥Q ♦- ♣KJ10xxxx

 

 

you partner open 1♣ 16+ , you answer 1NT 7-9 pts any

 

he bid 2♠, you bid 4♦Cue bid, he bid 4♠

 

 

second bid 1♣ - 1♠ ( nat 5+ 8+pts )

 

he bid 2♠ you bid 4♦ same and he also close to 4♠

 

do you will look for more ?