Bidding

[ruotal]

Auctions :

N E S W

P P 1♥ X

?

 

North Hand : ♠ J7632 ♥ J1096 ♦ AJ9 ♣ 8

 

First question : Is it possible (or let's say use by players) to play Jordan ?

 

Second : if yes, is it better employ Drury or Jordan.

 

Thank you.

[pbleighton]

Possible, but much better to play Drury, as you can play at the two level if partner has opened light.

 

Peter

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

First for simplicity: Jordan.

Drury should be off after intervention,

why treat

 

Pass (Pass) - 1H -(x)

???

 

different than

1H -(x)- ???

(Pass)- 1H -(x)- ???

 

Second: With the given hand simply

bid 3H, preemptive raise with 4 trumps,

since the given hand is certainly not

invitational, even oppossite a full opener.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[mike777]

Prefer Bromad over one major=x

 

1s=x

2s=3 piece less than constructive

2h=3 piece, constructive

xx=3 piece, lmt or better in support(xx doesn't promise support, you have to raise later.

all bids above 2s the same Bergen as if there was no double.

 

1h=x

 

2h=3 piece less than constructive

2d=3 piece, constructive

xx=3 piece, lmt or better in support(xx doesn't promise support, you have to raise later.

all bids above 2h the same Bergen as if there was no double.

[keylime]

I bid 1♠.

[pbleighton]

"First for simplicity: Jordan.

Drury should be off after intervention,

why treat

 

Pass (Pass) - 1H -(x)

???

 

different than

1H -(x)- ???

(Pass)- 1H -(x)- ???'"

 

Because the third hand opener may be light.

 

"Second: With the given hand simply

bid 3H, preemptive raise with 4 trumps,

since the given hand is certainly not

invitational, even oppossite a full opener."

 

Well, different evaluations for different folks ;)

 

I count this as 11 in support: 7 hcp plus 3 for

the stiff plus 1 for a combination of the fourth

trump and the 10-9 of trumps.

 

3H is a significant underbid, IMO. I invite with

10 including distribution, myself.

 

Peter

[mike777]

This is what 3clubs Bergen was invented for ;)

1h=x=3c around 7-10...8-11 support pts 4 trumps.

Will not respond 1s with this hand, poor spades and want to show my hand with one bid with Bergen 3clubs.

[keylime]

No one is wanting to claim the boss suit? What's wrong with 1♠ knowing that if pard has opened light you're not going to hang them....

[pbleighton]

"No one is wanting to claim the boss suit? What's wrong with 1♠ knowing that if pard has opened light you're not going to hang them.... "

 

Contrast 1H-1S-2C/2D/2H (you have no idea if pd opened light) with 1H-2C(did you open light pd)-x. After the first sequence, you can't stop in 2H, unless you are willing to not invite. After Drury, you can.

 

Peter

[neilkaz]

No one is wanting to claim the boss suit? What's wrong with 1♠ knowing that if pard has opened light you're not going to hang them....

1♠ is totally off my radar here. I want the opps to stumble into ♠ if possible and almost certainly we have at least 9♥.

 

The question is whether the hand is good enough for a limit raise or not. I prefer, by a slight bit, to just bid 2H unless playing some gadget.

 

.. neilkaz ..

[mike777]

It seems to me all this drury or go slow stuff just lets the opp in the auction if we are both weak. I got junk and if partner has junk lets get to 3H fast through Bergen. If partner has a real hand 3clubs lets partner know we got a little something with 4 hearts.

 

Do you really expect to buy this hand in 2H with a 9 card fit and the opp to say nothing?

[HeartA]

I agree with Marlowe and would bid 3H. And as neilkaz said, I would hid my spades.

[hrothgar]

Comment 1: I've seen a fair amount of debate in expert circles regarding the utility of Bergen raises in non-competitive auctions following a first or second seat 1M opening. Realtively few top players recommend these methods in competive auctions or after third/fourth seat openings. Fit showing jumps are much more useful. Personally, I'd never want to use 3♣/3♦ as Bergen raises in this type of sequence.

 

Comment 2: I think this looks like a preemptive raise. I'm bidding 3♥ and shutting down their ability to find a minor suit fit. If they find a Spade fit, I'm going to be quite happy. If partner has a Spade void opposite my 5 small then all my "points" are working.

 

I briefly toyed with the idea of a 2NT bid, however, the hand really doesn't seem strong enough

[Winstonm]

I bid 2H.

 

This is a solid 2H bid but it is not a limit raise - more in line with a Bergen "mixed" raise than anything else.

 

This to me is the only time Bergen raises are valuable - when RHO has doubled.

[the hog]

I prefer the following structure over a X

1NT + = transfers; so here a 2D bid would be a good H raise and a 2H bid "just a bid".

[zasanya]

Does anyone violently disagree with 4♥?

[adhoc3]

I prefer the following structure over a X

1NT + = transfers; so here a 2D bid would be a good H raise and a 2H bid "just a bid".

1MX full:

 

"The Basis: C/1MX

Cappelletti Over One of a Major Doubled (C/1MX) is a cute set of responses over an opponent's double. It is based on the assumption that you would usually rather play in 2M than in 1NT when the suit is 5-2. That frees up 1NT for a puppet to 2C, and 2-level bids below 2M are transfers. with the 6-9-point balanced hand with 2 of partner's suit, then, either you transfer into a 5-card side suit and then return to partner's major, or you bid the 1NT puppet and then partner's major. The immediate raise is a 3-card garbage raise, and the transfer into partner's suit is a 3-card constructive raise. With any 10+ HCP, you redouble."

 

see link here

[whereagles]

Does anyone violently disagree with 4♥?

Not really, but it's a bit of a shot, given pard has anything from 9 hcp and 4 hearts to 22 hcp and a 65, so... ;)

[P_Marlowe]

"First for simplicity: Jordan.

Drury should be off after intervention,

why treat

<snip>

...

<snip>

...

<snip>

Because the third hand opener may be light.

<snip>

Hi Peter,

 

I agree, that my suggestion is only

suboptimal, but than, I dont play a

lot, and like to keep things simple.

 

And I dont believe that the difference

between Jordan and Drury is that big,

since they wont let you play on the 2

level anyway.

... With the given hand you have a

chance, since you hold the spades.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: Regarding the strength: 3H or inv.,

I think it may also depend on the vul.,

you have 9 losers, but know about a 5-4

fit, which gives you reason to upgrade,

i.e. you may treat it as inv., but I think

it is close.

[Chamaco]

IMO after opps interference, there is no real need for Drury.

In fact when responder has the value for a limit raise, :

 

- he can bid 2NT (4+ fit), without fear of being too high in a 9 card fit, even if opener is light

- with a limit 3 card raise, he can XX, or occasionally, with a really good sidesuit, make a fitshowing jump.

 

- for the rest of the structure, I agree with the 1NT+ transfer bids mentioned by Ron, including a direct 2M to show a bad raise, and a 1-under raise to show constructive raise.

[mike777]

As you may or may not recall, the whole reason Bergen came up with the 2 ways to make a limit raise in the first place is that he says opener should accept a 4 card limit raise even with a dead minimum in high cards when he holds distribution (a singleton)....but he should not accept such a limit raise made with 3 trumps.

 

If you are going to play a system that that does not differentiate between 3 and 4 card raises and weakish, mixed or invite strength at least explain why that is winning bridge and why the opponents will let you play in an 8 card fit let alone a nine card fit at the 2 level?

[whereagles]

Bergen raises are overrated. All they tell you is 4 trumps and some nr. of hcps. They don't say anything about doubletons/singletons nor where the honors are located. While honor location is a bit secondary, side short suits are often important and bergen does a pretty good job hiding them.

[mike777]

If Bergen is overrated you should tell the mysterious ratings people about it. However using a convention based on an overrating or underrating seems a strange way to play bridge. :lol:

 

In any case you are not playing Bergen raises correctly so that may account for your poor results. :)

 

With all of that said one can say Bergen raises without using any judgement can have problems. The following hand type is a typical problem if an unpassed hand.

 

Of course I do not pass these hands so I can never be a passed hand and be this good.

 

1H=?

 

x....KQx....Jxxxx....KQxx

or

1S=?

KQx...x....Jxxxx....KQxx

 

I resolve it by bidding 3D a limit raise promising 4 card support

 

If you have time to tell partner where all your stiffs, doubletons and honor cards are with less than game force hands then you play in some strange games, do not your opp ever bid? That is why I play Bergen and Bromad on over the opp bidding because they are always bidding against me. :) I seem to never have silent auctions even when I open a strong 2 clubs. :P

[kenrexford]

I agree with the Hog on the idea to use Suit/Lead. However, I sould suggest a better application of this.

 

The way I play, after 1♥-X-? (passed hand or not), 1NT relays 2♣, 2♣ relays 2♦, 2♦ is a constructive raise, and 2♥ is a nuisance raise.

 

Using this, the relay shows either a suit (weak or strong) or a fit (lead-directional). Failure to suggest an alternative lead suggests leading the suit.

 

I do not want a heart lead, preferring to suggest diamonds. So, I would bid 2♣ and then convert the diamond call (assumed) to hearts. If the opponents bid before partner, I convert his support double of 2♠ or 3♣ (support for diamonds) back to 3♥.

 

If I did not use Flower Bids (jump to 3♣, for example as fit-showing and natural), I'd prefer 3♣ to be a mini-splinter, showing the stiff and the four-card fit all at once. Using a Bergen approach, or Jordan, or some one-way or two-way Drury, seems to leave partner with insufficient info to handle the competitive auction, especialy if there is a decision to make over 4♠.

[whereagles]

1. If Bergen is overrated you should tell the mysterious ratings people about it. However using a convention based on an overrating or underrating seems a strange way to play bridge. :lol:

 

2. In any case you are not playing Bergen raises correctly so that may account for your poor results. :P

 

3. If you have time to tell partner where all your stiffs, doubletons and honor cards are with less than game force hands then you play in some strange games, do not your opp ever bid?

1. Feeling the need to go off-topic? We got a subforum for that somewhere...

 

2. What exactly do mean by "playing Bergen raises correctly"?

 

3. This is how it works: when opps get a chance to bid, the info about stiffs and honor cards will have usually already been transmitted to opener.