Simple little style question

[whereagles]

None vuln, you hold:

 

♠ xx

♥ 9xx

♦ AT9x

♣ J9xx

 

Pard opens 1♥, 1st seat. System is 2/1, but style choices are yours. Do you prefer pass, a direct 2♥ support, or show support via the forcing 1NT?

[hrothgar]

Forcing NT it is...

 

Way too weak for a direct 2♥

[whereagles]

Maybe I should clear this up. If you're playing constructive raises, you have no coice but to bid 1NT. The question is whether you prefer the constructive style or a direct 2♥ raise style.

[neilkaz]

Very simply if playing constructive raises (not my preferred style) you use 1NTF and then try to s/off in 2♥ showing a weak raise.

 

If not using constructive raises, then raise directly to 2♥ with what sure looks like a decent 6 support points to me.

 

.. neilkaz ..

[mikeh]

I prefer semi-constructive raises.... not to be different but because I don't like solid constructive raises in that they allow 4th hand too easy an entry into the auction after 1N and I don't like old-fashioned wide range raises because they make game tries too dangerous.

 

My definition is not based on hcp, but on whether there is at least one help suit try that you would accept. If the answer is affirmative, you have a semi-constructive raise: if negative, go through 1N.

 

On the given hand, I would not accept any game try so I bid 1N.

[neilkaz]

I prefer semi-constructive raises.... not to be different but because I don't like solid constructive raises in that they allow 4th hand too easy an entry into the auction after 1N and I don't like old-fashioned wide range raises because they make game tries too dangerous.

 

My definition is not based on hcp, but on whether there is at least one help suit try that you would accept. If the answer is affirmative, you have a semi-constructive raise: if negative, go through 1N.

 

On the given hand, I would not accept any game try so I bid 1N.

Mike.. your defination of semi-constructive raises is what I thought the standard defination of constructive raises is. Perhaps a nomenclature difference, or perhaps a true constructive raise would accept more than 1 game try ?

 

thx .. neilkaz ..

[kenberg]

This hand interests me. Most good players that I know follow Mike's general rule: Raising to 2H indicates at least one game try would be accepted. I still have not bought into this, and I just bid 2H right away. Here is an issue. Suppose I bid 1NT, lho bids 2S, pass pass to me. Presumably with an 11 count and three hearts I would have bid 1NT (since 3H or some version of Bergen would show four) and then with this 11 count I would now bid 3H. If that's what I would do with an 11 count I presumably cannot do it with a five count. How is this problem solved by the (semi-) concstructive rasise folks?

 

Thus:

1H-P-1N-2S

P-P-?

 

Of course I can sell to 2S, but there is a known eight card heart fit and apparently partner has some extras since the opponents are content to settle for 2S. Will he know not to raise 3H to 4? How do I bid 3H to play? It seems to me that bidding 1N pretty much confines me to passing out 2S.

[keylime]

I rather raise freely. Playing forcing NT, you have a difficult time with this hand if 4th seat preempts you, or if opener jump-shifts you.

[HeartA]

With an ace and a doubleton, I prefer a direct 2H, though 1N is the close second.

[jtfanclub]

None vuln, you hold:

 

♠ xx

♥ 9xx

♦ AT9x

♣ J9xx

 

Pard opens 1♥, 1st seat. System is 2/1, but style choices are yours. Do you prefer pass, a direct 2♥ support, or show support via the forcing 1NT?

Wow, I'm the only person to pass!

 

I thought in SAYC + 1NT forcing, 1NT showed 6-9 hcp, 2♥ showed 7-10 or so. You have 5 hcp, 3 card support, and are pretty much flat. It's a hell of a thing to upgrade your hand by a point for the doubleton when only one possible shape is worse.

 

If your partner has 17 hcp, he's not going to let it end at 2♥. If he has fewer, the opponents aren't going to let it end at 2♥. In MPs, I might bid 1NT and try to psyche the opps out of bidding spades. In IMPs, you couldn't pay me to bid:

 

1. Partner is going to stretch to go to game. He's going to be very dissappointed to find that his 40% game across an average bid is in fact closer to 0% with your one entry.

 

2. Since the odds are that the final contract will be higher than 2♥, we're probably talking about one side making it vs. the other side going down one, for 60 or 90 net. 3 IMPs max. The only way this hand becomes swingy is if partner believes you're stronger and gets doubled at the 3 level, which seems to happen a lot to me when I respond with garbage.

 

I know, I know, everybody loves bidding. But there's no real pre-emptive effect to any of these calls, and you're not interested in game. Why make them?

[P_Marlowe]

1NT followed by 2H.

I wont pass, and I wont sell the hand as

a normal or even a constructive raise.

 

If not playing Forcing NT, I will stretch to

make a simple raise, but I play it, i.e. i

dont need to stretch.

Otherwise I should ask myself the question,

why do I allow a fit in the forcing NT reponse.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[pbleighton]

I prefer the style that raises to 2H immediately.

 

I detest constructive raises, although I play them in 2 partnerships.

 

Peter

[mike777]

I rather raise freely. Playing forcing NT, you have a difficult time with this hand if 4th seat preempts you, or if opener jump-shifts you.

Why?

 

easy 1nt so far.

 

Not sure how a very wide ranging 2h bid helps partner. 0-11 support pts?

[the hog]

"Wow, I'm the only person to pass!"

 

No you are not. I pass this without a second thought, even if I have a forcng NT available. This is a 10 loser hand with the A being the only redeeming feature. For heaven's sake, you don't even have a H honor!

[whereagles]

Here is an issue. Suppose I bid 1NT, lho bids 2S, pass pass to me. Presumably with an 11 count and three hearts I would have bid 1NT (since  3H or some version of Bergen would show four) and then with this 11 count I would now bid 3H. If that's what I would do with an 11 count I presumably cannot do it with a five count. How is this problem solved by the (semi-) concstructive rasise folks?

 

Thus:

1H-P-1N-2S

P-P-?

 

Of course I can sell to 2S, but there is a known eight card heart fit and apparently partner has some extras since the opponents are content to settle for 2S. Will he know not to raise 3H to 4? How do I bid 3H to play? It seems to me that bidding 1N pretty much confines me to passing out 2S.

You read minds, Ken. For that was exactly what happened at table :)

 

Here are the full hands:[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sqj9hkt8xxdjcakxx&w=sat8xxxhjxdkq8cqx&e=skxhaqxdxxxxxct8x&s=sxxh9xxdat9xcj9xx]399|300|Scoring: MPs

North opens 1♥ (2/1). Should South..

 

1. pass

2. bid 2♥

3. bid 1NT forcing[/hv]

 

West North East South

......... 1♥ .. pass . 1NT

.. 2♠ .. (all pass)

 

North couldn't act over 2♠, and South was left with the last guess. As the cards lie, 3♥ makes (lucky, though), but 1 down would be a good score, even doubled (was matchpoints, by the way).

 

The hand illustrates one of the weaknesses of constructive raises. Had South been able to bid a straight 2♥, it would be easier for North to press on to 3♥ over 2♠. Not that he would always do that (he has spade wastage), but at least it would be easier for him to do it if he had gotten a straight raise.

 

Of course, constructive raise have other advantages. It's all a matter of trade-offs and one hand alone is of course not enough to draw conclusions.

[kenberg]

I'm right? Good grief. I knew I should have bought a lottery ticket that day.

 

Anyway, I agree that it's a trade off. Direct raises may get you to 3H when you needn't and shouldn't be there, while going through 1NT may make it more difficult to get to 3H when you should. It suits my general outlook on life to avoid taking two bids to do what can be done with one, but no doubt simplicity, while a virtue, is not everything.

 

Thanks for giving my hypothetical some flesh.

 

Ken

[Gerben42]

Anyway I don't think Pass is an option here, and believe me if I bid in this kind of situations that Pass isn't an option.

 

Also 2♥ playing 2/1 isn't an option. You have the kind of hand if partner makes a game try after a constructive raise that you want to go back to 2♥ right away.

 

Third: 1♥ p 2♥* 2♠

* Not constructive but allowed on the actual hand

 

Now who should bid 3♥? Opener has the dreadful 4 wasted points that will probably not score in a ♥ contract and then he has 9 left (okay plus a singleton). The tripleton ♠ warns him off and he will pass. How about responder? He doesn't have anything!

 

Anyway, your claim that 3♥ makes is incorrect. But it is lucky that it is only one down.

[kenberg]

Holding the N cards, after 1H-P-2H-2S, I would bid 3H at mps nv. Right or wrong, I would do it. How is it to be beaten? I assume the defense would begin king and then small spade to the ace, followed by a third spade. Whether E ruffs or not, small or high, it seems the defense gets two hearts and two spades. Presumably E pitches rather than ruffs, declarer goes to the board with the diamond and runs the nine of hearts. If W ducks E wins and returns, say, a diamond. Now Declarer now has to guess whether to bang down the king of trump smothering the Jack or play a small trump hoping a defender started with A doubleton, but even against this (good, I think) defense declarer can and might succeed, although he must guess well. Aganst more prosaic defense it seems to me declarer stumbles into a successful line more or less without thought. If there is a way for defenders to guarantee five tricks I don't see it. I'm blind? Could be. A diamond lead at trick one will cause him some trouble but it seems to me unlikely after the spade bid and anyway I think it can be coped with, again by good guessing: Go up with the ace, heart to the 8, play low on the second diamond lead, ruff, play the king of hearts. A third diamond will force declarer again, but it will also establish a diamond trick for 0+3+2+4=9 tricks.

[whereagles]

1. Now who should bid 3♥?

 

2. Anyway, your claim that 3♥ makes is incorrect. But it is lucky that it is only one down.

1. As I said, I'm not claiming North should bid 3♥. I'm just saying some might bid 3♥ with the North hand, whereas very few would do it if responder had bid 1NT.

 

2. Hum.. that's strange, the "oracle" (double dummy analyser) says it makes. And I also only see 4 losers :)

[Al_U_Card]

I have, and can, play both methods. I tend to prefer the direct raise for its descriptive and preemptive value. While the 2S bid is problematic over even 1H p 2H, what about the opps coming in with 2C or 2D over the forcing NT?

 

My question here is, what would you need to come in with 2 of a minor when you hear 1M p 1NT to you?

[jtfanclub]

Anyway I don't think Pass is an option here, and believe me if I bid in this kind of situations that Pass isn't an option.

Fair enough. So how much worse would the hand have to be before you'd pass with it?

[mikestar]

I'm passing--then they presumably bid 1♠ and I can come back in with 2♥ and there is no danger of partner getting too high.

[mike777]

Alot of these comments make no sense to me.

 

If 2h means any range how can north bid bid 3h unless he assumes the opp are in a 8 card fit.

 

If you are going to assume the opp are in a 8 card fit at the 2 level then south can reopen with x and play in 3clubs in the 4-4 fit after starting with 1nt or choose to compete to 3H.

 

As for pass I would never pass 1H opening with 3 hearts and an Ace or King somewhere.

[jdeegan]

:o No doubt that 3♥ is the place to be on this hand. I just can't see how I could bid it with either hand. Opener is 3-5-1-4 with a spade trick, weak hearts and a motley collection of high cards. Responder has a weak raise with three card support. Both hands say pass to me.

 

I'm thinking of running a simulation of some sort. I just can't believe taking the push with the North hand, while certainly not terrible, is a winner on balance even NV in matchpoints.

 

Wait a minute. Can't the E-W hands make 3♠?

[whereagles]

:rolleyes: No doubt that 3♥ is the place to be on this hand. I just can't see how I could bid it with either hand. Opener is 3-5-1-4 with a spade trick, weak hearts and a motley collection of high cards. Responder has a weak raise with three card support. Both hands say pass to me.

 

I'm thinking of running a simulation of some sort. I just can't believe taking the push with the North hand, while certainly not terrible, is a winner on balance even NV in matchpoints.

 

Wait a minute. Can't the E-W hands make 3♠?

I take it you're assuming opener got a raise, e.g. it went 1♥-pass-2♥-2♠.

 

In that case, the FTL analysis is that it's quite possible that responder has a doubleton spade, making it a SST of 3. In that case 16-18 working points are usually enough for 9 tricks. Opener has like 10-11, and responder should have anything from 5 to 9 WPs. On average 3♥ rates to make. But of course, if pard comes up with a tripleton spade... :o

 

As for whether 3♠ makes, I threw away the "oracle" sheet of makeable contracts, but I seem to remember 3♠ does make. Not that opps will bid it all the time over 3♥. Maybe they stop to double you and see it make :rolleyes: