Blood thirsty doubles

[starfruit]

[hv=d=s&v=e&s=skj4hqj93d9875c87]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

I passed, partner opened 1♠ and raised to 2 by me.

This way passed back to East who balanced with 3♥.

Since partner might have opened light, perhaps it's rather foolish to double.

But what if partner had opened first/second seat? Would you double?

If not, what else do you need? ;)

[awm]

At IMPs I would pass. I expect to beat this, but it's possible it might make if partner opened light. The double might help declarer play the heart suit in some positions as well. In any case there's no reason to think we will get it down two, and we certainly don't have a game.

 

At MPs I would double, since I want to protect our +110. I don't want to hear partner bid 3♠ (at MP people do this a lot more often than at IMPs) and the reward for +200 is quite high.

[mike777]

This is a typical MP problem I would like to see discussed in more depth please.

Is making a 4 card trump suit x with this holding a pretty typical choice?

[TheoKole]

These types of hands are why I like to play reverse Drury.

 

If partner has opened light in 3rd or 4th seat, a 2 spade bid would would describe my hand exactly. 6-9 points in support of spades, I would bid 2 clubs to describe 10 - 11 points in support and Jacoby 2NT with more and a 4+ card fit.

 

My double would say that I am maximum for my bid and I expect 2 trump tricks against a heart contract.

 

Having said that, I would double at MP's, at IMP's it would be very, very close. (My estimate of declarers ability might pull me one way or another in favour of the double). I know that my regular partner is allowed to pull the double with a shapely hand, but my spot cards in the minors will help a lot to play through any strength that dummy may have.

 

If I have a borderline double like this, I try usually to follow Lawrence's advice; he says,

 

(paraphasing) "in these situations it pays to double just so that the opponents learn that they can't try to steal the hand from you without penalties, it goes a long way to earning a reputation as a tough opponent, and will pay off on other hands as well".

 

Just a few of my thoughts,

 

Cheers, Theo

[pbleighton]

I would double at MPs even opposite a 3rd hand opener. I would never double at IMPs.

 

Peter

[Codo]

I would double at MPs even opposite a 3rd hand opener. I would never double at IMPs.

 

Peter

100 %

[starfruit]

Here comes Question for part 2 : If 3♥ was passed out, (or doubled and passed out) what is your lead?

Would it be the same whether it's doubled or not?

[bid_em_up]

Here comes Question for part 2 : If 3♥ was passed out, (or doubled and passed out) what is your lead?

Would it be the same whether it's doubled or not?

Spade King should be clear cut. The objective here should be to immediately begin to force declarer to shorten his trumps and lose control of the hand.

[neilkaz]

I pass at Imps...risk vs reward isn't there. Double at MPs and lead a spade either way.

[keylime]

At imps, the one question you should ask is:

 

"Can I defeat this two tricks?"

 

This is a hand that shouldn't double; the risk of -530/-730 is way too high.

 

Lead choice: High spade lead. As my friend mentioned, forcing declarer should be effective.

[starfruit]

Alright! here comes the hand :

[hv=d=s&v=e&n=st9876h6dajckqj64&w=s3h852dkqt632cat3&e=saq52hakt74d4c952&s=skj4hqj93d9875c87]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

I led the ♠K, thinking to myself :"glad to have seen this kind of lead before."

Declarer then proceeded the play double-dummy style. :lol:

 

♠A, draw exactly 1 round of trumps, ♦ to K.

Partner switched to ♣K but declarer discarded 2♣s with ♦Q and T. Some cross ruffling brought the total to 10tricks, a well deserved 930.

 

♣Lead would have got this -1, but high♠ should be correct I guess, since 2 posts have suggested it.

 

Conclusion :

1)Partner might have opened light, so double is wrong.

2)Even if partner opened normally, double is still wrong. ;) (2.5 quick tricks promised + my 2 trumps = not enough for -2)

 

So now 3rd part of the question : should my partner run?

If so, is there any merit of bidding 3♣?

[HeartA]

I would have opened 1C with North's hand. I know, I know, many prefer 1S....

[starfruit]

1♣ looks reasonable to me too but. . .

 

Me :"Have you thought of opening 1♣?"

Partner :"Are you crazy?"

 

I wonder how many would have opened 1♣?

[awm]

Keep in mind that:

 

(1) If you never double a making contract at MP, you're probably not doubling enough.

 

(2) Dummy showed up with an awfully nice hand (which needn't have been the case).

 

(3) This contract seems to go down fairly easily on a club lead.

 

Of course it's far from obvious to lead a club on the auction, but saying that "double is wrong" seems quite a position. More reasonable to say that "a spade lead is wrong" since the club lead gets you +200. Realistically though, there is a difference between making the right bids and leads and actually getting a good score. The "right decision" is the one that works best on average given the information available. Getting a good score requires some luck as well on the lie of the remaining cards.

 

With this said, I don't think I would have lead a spade on this particular hand. I've already got two natural trump tricks and shortening declarer may actually allow him to endplay me and compress my tricks. Setting up the tap works better when I have a number of small trumps with a fast stopper (say Kxxx of trumps) and want to promote my little ones. I'd rather make a semi-passive lead that's unlikely to give declarer anything, and this means a minor suit.

[zasanya]

:P Q.4: Should I continue to play with a P who opens light with a 10 top suit when he has a second powerful suit?

:rolleyes: Should I play Tartan bids(Some call them Muiderberg ) and does this hand qualify for 2♠ tartan in view of the ten top suit?(Some suggest tartan 2 should be opened only with Q top or better 5 card suits)

[Walddk]

I wonder how many would have opened 1♣?

Me. 1♣ stands out a mile; I wouldn't even consider 1♠. It actually doesn't matter if I'm in 3rd/4th seat or not. I open 1♣ with 5-5 in the blacks unless I am strong enough to reverse (3♣) over a 2♦/♥ response.

 

Occasionally, for tactical reasons, I may open 1♠ in 3rd if my spade suit is considerably stronger than the club suit.

 

Roland

[the hog]

"Should I play Tartan bids(Some call them Muiderberg "

 

Tartan Twos bear absolutely NO resemblance to Muiderberg whatsoever.

 

Regarding the opening bid: 1S stands out a mile - never open 1C on a 5/5 unless you are prepared to bid 4S over the opponents 4H bid at your second turn.

[Codo]

I strongly dislike the double at imps, the lead at any form of scoring and the bdding from pd.

I had openend 1 club, but accept, that some will call this a major error.

I had passed out 3 ♥ in both seats, accepting a potential minor loss, but being glad, that they are not in 4.

 

I had lead a diamond what had been no success either.

[paulhar]

Here comes Question for part 2 : If 3♥ was passed out, (or doubled and passed out) what is your lead?

Would it be the same whether it's doubled or not?

Spade King should be clear cut. The objective here should be to immediately begin to force declarer to shorten his trumps and lose control of the hand.

Really? Maybe I need to be educated because I always thought that you embarked on a forcing game to make your little (or partner's little) trumps good. Here, you have two trump tricks. Declarer may very well try to make this hand scambling with some minor suit tricks and hoping to make some small trumps good by ruffing. If he ruffs with enough small trumps, your trump tricks will fall on partner's winners. I'm not sure I would ever think of the forcing game holding QJ9x of trump. (Maybe it has merit if I'm the one with the five card spade suit.)

 

That's not to say I wouldn't lead a spade, I probably would. I just wouldn't use 'the forcing game' as the reason.

[bid_em_up]

Here comes Question for part 2 : If 3♥ was passed out, (or doubled and passed out) what is your lead?

Would it be the same whether it's doubled or not?

Spade King should be clear cut. The objective here should be to immediately begin to force declarer to shorten his trumps and lose control of the hand.

Really? Maybe I need to be educated because I always thought that you embarked on a forcing game to make your little (or partner's little) trumps good. Here, you have two trump tricks. Declarer may very well try to make this hand scambling with some minor suit tricks and hoping to make some small trumps good by ruffing. If he ruffs with enough small trumps, your trump tricks will fall on partner's winners. I'm not sure I would ever think of the forcing game holding QJ9x of trump. (Maybe it has merit if I'm the one with the five card spade suit.)

 

That's not to say I wouldn't lead a spade, I probably would. I just wouldn't use 'the forcing game' as the reason.

Well, unfortunately, you have been taught incorrectly (imo). You should begin to embark on a forcing game almost anytime you hold length in the trump suit and especially if it is the LONG hand that is being made to ruff, as you will soon hold more trumps than declarer and he will lose control of the hand.

 

Since it is declarer (not dummy) who is most likely to be short in spades, a spade should be led.

 

In this case, its unfortunate that it was dummy that was short in spades, but that doesnt mean a spade isnt the correct lead. (You also normally would expect the spade K to hold the first trick, allowing you to make a switch if necessary at trick after you see dummy).

[cherdano]

Here comes Question for part 2 : If 3♥ was passed out, (or doubled and passed out) what is your lead?

Would it be the same whether it's doubled or not?

Spade King should be clear cut. The objective here should be to immediately begin to force declarer to shorten his trumps and lose control of the hand.

Really? Maybe I need to be educated because I always thought that you embarked on a forcing game to make your little (or partner's little) trumps good. Here, you have two trump tricks. Declarer may very well try to make this hand scambling with some minor suit tricks and hoping to make some small trumps good by ruffing. If he ruffs with enough small trumps, your trump tricks will fall on partner's winners. I'm not sure I would ever think of the forcing game holding QJ9x of trump. (Maybe it has merit if I'm the one with the five card spade suit.)

 

That's not to say I wouldn't lead a spade, I probably would. I just wouldn't use 'the forcing game' as the reason.

Well, unfortunately, you have been taught incorrectly (imo). You should begin to embark on a forcing game almost anytime you hold length in the trump suit and especially if it is the LONG hand that is being made to ruff, as you will soon hold more trumps than declarer and he will lose control of the hand.

 

Since it is declarer (not dummy) who is most likely to be short in spades, a spade should be led.

 

In this case, its unfortunate that it was dummy that was short in spades, but that doesnt mean a spade isnt the correct lead. (You also normally would expect the spade K to hold the first trick, allowing you to make a switch if necessary at trick after you see dummy).

Hmm. Quite often, the right approach by declarer in a low level contract with bad trump split is an elopement play. Cash your side winners, make tricks with your small trumps by ruffs quickly. A forcing game by the defense obviously helps this line of play.

 

So it depends on declarer's hand; with small trumps and no side suit to set up, forces are useless. Only when his trumps are good or when he has to set up a side suit, forcing is right.

 

Arend

[bid_em_up]

Hmm. Quite often, the right approach by declarer in a low level contract with bad trump split is an elopement play. Cash your side winners, make tricks with your small trumps by ruffs quickly. A forcing game by the defense obviously helps this line of play.

 

So it depends on declarer's hand; with small trumps and no side suit to set up, forces are useless. Only when his trumps are good or when he has to set up a side suit, forcing is right.

 

Arend

The points are, when selecting your opening lead:

 

1) you do not know which type of defense you should actually be selecting and

 

2) you cannot reasonably lead a trump from your holding (the standard defense to preventing an elopement by declarer).

 

Given your holdings and the auction so far, it appears that a forcing defense would be best (just not in this case). And as I said before, by leading the spade K, you expected retain the lead to determine what needs to be done at trick two.

[paulhar]

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=s106h72da1096cqj1082&w=sa543h84d8754ca95&e=s9872hak1065d2ck63&s=skqjhqj93dkqj3c74]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

South, thinking his hand too quacky to be worth 15 for 1NT, opens 1D. North bids 2D and East floats in with 2H, all pass.

 

Knowing the dangers of forcing declarer when I have good trumps, I lead the spade King. By not forcing declarer, I let him set up and enjoy his fourth spade. Declarer still has to lose 2S, 2H, 1D, and 1C to go off a trick, but the declarer never lost control.

 

At the other table, South plays a misguided forcing game by leading the spade King and Queen. Declarer ruffs, plays the club King, a club to the Ace, ruffs a spade, plays a diamond to the Ace, and ruffs a spade. Unfortuantely for declarer, he only has 2 trump to his opponent's four and never enjoys his fourth spade. Fortunately for declarer, his two trumps are the AK, to go with his six tricks taken to make 2H.