Stayman with 4-3-3-3?

[kingfish]

Just hoping to find out if most would skip stayman with a flat hand...

[awm]

This actually depends on a lot of things, including:

 

(1) Form of scoring. If partner is 4432, then the suit contract often plays one trick better. If partner is 4333 then there are usually the same number of tricks. At IMPs this points towards bidding 3NT directly because you need one trick less to make 3NT (so if partner is 4432 the same thing will happen to both games but if partner is 4333 you do better in 3NT). At MPs this points towards stayman, because partner is more likely to be 4432 than 4333 so you will often get a better score in 4M (420 is better than 400 at MPs).

 

(2) Partner's opening tendencies. If partner opens a lot of 4225-ish hands with 1NT, then stayman is more appealing (the 4-4 fit is almost always better in this case).

 

(3) The type and location of values. With scattered slow cards (queens and jacks) 3NT will often be better because of the danger of a quick ruff in a suit contract, and because you need one trick less. With quick tricks and cards concentrated in one or two suits, 4M will often play better because of the danger of a wide open side suit (say xxx opposite xx). Also, with points in both majors it sometimes pays to bid 3NT directly because opponents tend to lead a major against 1N-3N, whereas with three small in the three-card major it's more appealing to stayman (may scare opponents off the lead if partner has only one stopper as they will think I may have that major when partner bids 2♦ and I rebid 3NT).

 

Anyways, there are a lot of factors here but at MP scoring I tend to bid stayman much more often than a lot of the field on these hands.

[mikestar]

Playing normal Stayman where there is no way to determine if opener with a 4 card fit for my major is 4333 or 4432, I will just bid 3NT.

 

If we have methods where partner can make that distinction (for example Keri), I will enquire. With a bit stronger hand, say 13-15 points (game should be easy, no slam), I will bid 3NT as IMPs but will still enquire at MPs (I am less certain this is correct). At any scoring I will equire if slam is in the picture.

[neilkaz]

I don't open 1NT often when off shape and prefer that PD's also don't so for me, I just bid 3NT at any form of scoring and leave the defence in the dark.

 

I ran a sim a few years back with some program I had purchased, and it was clear to just bid 3NT (as long as one can trust the program).

 

Speaking of sims..it remains (unless I am not in the know) a shame that a program like GIB is not available to run Monte Carlo simulations of things like this.

 

.. neilkaz ..

[Codo]

I bid 3 ♥ with 4333 and 3 ♠ with 3433. Solves this problem easy.

If I have the GF Hand with the major, I can transfer and go on from there, so the loss is very very small.

[pbleighton]

3NT always.

 

Peter

[willow23]

No stayman with the dreaded 4-3-3-3 for me..

 

Usually both hands are flat;

 

Even worse..mirror hands; hard when it comes to ruffing and ditching loosers...

 

Did i say hard, try impossible B)

[mike777]

Ok so one hand is 4333 but the other hand could be very offshape, why are we rushing to judgement?

[whereagles]

Well, if you use keri's book version, you could check whether opener has a 4333 of its own :rolleyes:

 

/add mode off

[rbforster]

What about partner's 5 card major? I guess if you play this style for 1NT (might be 5M332), you probably want better ways to find the 5 card major than straight up stayman. You really can't afford to miss those 5-4 major fits.

[jtfanclub]

What about partner's 5 card major? I guess if you play this style for 1NT (might be 5M332), you probably want better ways to find the 5 card major than straight up stayman. You really can't afford to miss those 5-4 major fits.

I'm curious...is it actually better to play in the 9 card fit? Your other suits are 3-3, 3-3, and 3-2, there's no ruffing values unless your opponents are feeling kind.

 

Not making a claim, it's just not obvious to me.

[cherdano]

I bid 3 ♥ with 4333 and 3 ♠ with 3433. Solves this problem easy.

If I have the GF Hand with the major, I can transfer and go on from there, so the loss is very very small.

Umm. The loss compared to another very inefficient use of these bids is very small ;)

[jdeegan]

:rolleyes: The classic hand that you DON'T stayman has:

 

1. 4-3-3-3 shape

 

2. a combined total of 29 to 31 HCP between the two hands

 

3. a weak holding in the four card major - e.g. four small cards

 

4. lots of 10's and 9's and scattered minor honors

 

♠ 7652

♥ AQ10

♦ QJ9

♣ KQ9

 

The idea is that 3NT will make on sheer high card power, but four of a major might go down due to a shaky trump suit and a 4-1 split, say

7652 opposite K843

[HeartA]

Even with such a holding, it's a low possibility to face a WEAK spades. What if pd holds AKQx, Kxxx, Axx, xx? A spades slam is quite promising. Having said that, I do agree to bid 3N with weak 4-card major. But in most cases, I prefer using Stayman for a few reasons:

[zasanya]

;) The classic hand that you DON'T stayman has

...........

4. lots of 10's and 9's and scattered minor honors

Curious to know what is lots?

[Chamaco]

Say that your 11 count is the following:

 

AK32

875

A73

982

 

Then despite the 4333 shape, there is the likelihood that a suit contract will play better (sometimes even in a Moysian fit, although I am not suggesting we should look for one with this hand).

 

So, I agree with the rest of the forum buddies who suggest that the type of values is one crucial factor to determine whether enquiring for a major.

[P_Marlowe]

Always 2C, unless I hold bal.

12-14.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Gpm_bg]

depends of 11 points and kind of tournament.

11 points from and where points are in majors only, minors only

or distrubuted

 

with not generally points in major you could bid 3NT

 

with points generally in majors you can show curiosity and to go throught Stayman

 

two games as i imagine could be

 

109xx

Axx

KQx 3NT

Q10x

 

and

 

AQxx

KJx

J10x i would bid 2♣

xxx

[ochinko]

AQxx

KJx

J10x                i would bid 2♣

xxx

I don't agree here.

 

1. You don't have a ruff anywhere before the fourth round. Why do you think you could make more tricks in 4S with 4:4 than in 3NT?

 

2. All your points are in the majors. If it goes 1NT - 3NT, opps are much more likely to try a lead in the majors. But if it goes 1NT - 2C - 2H - 3NT, opps could well clear with the lead the only stopper that the declarer has in clubs.

[Chamaco]

AQxx

KJx

J10x                 i would bid 2♣

xxx

I don't agree here.

 

1. You don't have a ruff anywhere before the fourth round. Why do you think you could make more tricks in 4S with 4:4 than in 3NT?

 

2. All your points are in the majors. If it goes 1NT - 3NT, opps are much more likely to try a lead in the majors. But if it goes 1NT - 2C - 2H - 3NT, opps could well clear with the lead the only stopper that the declarer has in clubs.

I agree with Ochinko

[Gpm_bg]

some of players make stayman even with 3-3-3-4 or 3-3-4-3 expect ops to follow that conclusion

[whereagles]

Say that your 11 count is the following:

 

AK32

875

A73

982

 

Then despite the 4333 shape, there is the likelihood that a suit contract will play better (sometimes even in a Moysian fit, although I am not suggesting we should look for one with this hand).

Why is it that a suit contract will play better? I fail to see why.

[Free]

Say that your 11 count is the following:

 

AK32

875

A73

982

 

Then despite the 4333 shape, there is the likelihood that a suit contract will play better (sometimes even in a Moysian fit, although I am not suggesting we should look for one with this hand).

Why is it that a suit contract will play better? I fail to see why.

Are you serious? Does your partner never have QJxx-xx-KQJx-AKx with opponents ready to take 5 ♥ tricks? Nevertheless, it's a rare occasion and LHO still has to lead ♥, but it's quite simple to find examples (reverse ♥ and ♣ and you have another one). But then again, there are many examples that conclude 3NT is a better contract... ;)

[Chamaco]

Say that your 11 count is the following:

 

AK32

875

A73

982

 

Then despite the 4333 shape, there is the likelihood that a suit contract will play better (sometimes even in a Moysian fit, although I am not suggesting we should look for one with this hand).

Why is it that a suit contract will play better? I fail to see why.

 

Lack of intermediate and great controls/quick tricks are generally referred to as good indicators that the hand is suit-oriented.

 

In this case, of course, there is also a reverse indicator, e.g. 4333 shape is generally referred to as a good indicator that the hand is NT oriented.

 

So here we have 2 conflicting indicators, one pointing towards suit cotract (or at least towards its investigation via Stayman), and another pointing towards a 3NT signoff bid.

 

Personally - for what is worth - in light of the above reasons, with

 

AK32

875

A73

982

 

I would strongly recommend using stayman,

whereas with

 

KT92

JT9

A73

KTx

 

I would signoff in 3NT.

 

I hope I was clearer now ;)

[ochinko]

some of players make stayman even with 3-3-3-4 or 3-3-4-3 expect ops to follow that conclusion

I don't fool my partner just to fool the opponents too. Must have a better reason for that.

 

What if partner is 4-4 in the majors, and corrects your 3NT to 4S after 1NT - 2C - 2H - 3NT?