A thought about raising pd's Major

[flytoox]

There are many ways to raise pd in the competitive auction. In the uncontested auction, options are less.

 

I am now practising a way to raise pd's Major suit opening. This method is much like Drury.

 

1M-2C: 2C is either game force value with real club suit, or 3card raise with 8-10HCP, or 11-2HCP balanced hand.

 

We practiced this method and find it very useful.

 

Now I am thinking to extend this method to 1M-2D

 

2D= either game force value with real diamon suit, or 3card raise with 11-2HCP. After 2d, opener's 2M rebid is passable, any other bid is gf. If responder did not pass opener's 2M rebid, then his bid promise real d suit and gf value.

 

This method is easy to learn and use. The extension is also very straightforward, much like the extension of Lebensohl.

 

Does this extension exist already?

[inquiry]

There are many ways to raise pd in the competitive auction. In the uncontested auction, options are less.

 

I am now practising a way to raise pd's Major suit opening. This method is much like Drury.

 

1M-2C: 2C is either game force value with real club suit, or 3card raise with 8-10HCP, or 11-2HCP balanced hand.

 

We practiced this method and find it very useful.

 

Now I am thinking to extend this method to 1M-2D

 

2D= either game force value with real diamon suit, or 3card raise with 11-2HCP. After 2d, opener's 2M rebid is passable, any other bid is gf. If responder did not pass opener's 2M rebid, then his bid promise real d suit and gf value.

 

This method is easy to learn and use. The extension is also very straightforward, much like the extension of Lebensohl.

 

Does this extension exist already?

 

This suggestion of making both 2C and 2D over 1M as "conventional" reminds me of a famous quote by Edgar Kaplan quote:

"I don't think anyone in this tournament can bid diamonds

to show diamonds. We lost the club suit in the 1950s. Now

diamonds are gone and hearts are sinking fast."

 

The way you have been practicing, 2C can be a lot of things (since I am doing this with you). 2C is

• 5+ clubs, game force (typical 2/1 response)
  
• Balanced hand 10-18 hcp, no 3 card fit
  
• 3 card support for M and good 8 hcp or more
  

 

The are two questions about the best approach. Should big balanced hand (13+) with 3 cards support start 2C followed by 3NT/4NT or should they start immediate 3NT/4NT. I have tried both ways, with 3 card support beginning 2C and with 2C denying 3 card support when Notrump is then bid.

 

But the issue you haven't faced yet, is competition in light of the artificial bid (since practice you have is with bidding room). The confusion over what is held is sometimes hard to unravel when opponents are not so cooperative as to pass. Your proposed solution seems workable, but it is one more auction where the question, does partner have diamonds or not, does partner have support or not, can get in the way.

 

I might suggest that you reverse the meaning of 2C/2D in your structure. 2C being the stronger raise when fit exist, 2D being the weaker. This gives you a little more room to explore the "weakness" of the weak raise.

 

The problem child hand for both these structures is 5S and 4H opening bid.

 

1S-2m

2H

 

This auction, when 2m bidder is "weak" (say 10/11 hcp, balanced), starts 1S-1N-2H and the fit is found and responder is identified as weak. Now with the overloaded 2m, you have found your fit, but responder can have true gf value, or maybe 2H is 'high enough." What does a 3H raise mean by responder? Game force, slam try or balanced 10-11 with 4 card heart support. As you know, the system you are practicing has a way to handle this, but this would need to be revisited if you add 2D as a possible bid with support and not game forcing value.

 

Ben

[inquiry]

Overloaded forcing 1NT...

 

In standard 2/1 game force, the 1NT response is terrifically overloaded, especially if you play bergen raises.

 

1) To start off with, it can be very weak one suiter (since preemptive jump shift is removed due to bergen).

 

2) and can be fair value, one suiter, but not enough for 2/1

 

3) it can be modest value, one suit

 

4) it can be balanced anywhere from 7 or 8 right on up, depending upon what 1M-3NT means

 

5) It can have three card support for major and be either very weak (not good enough for 1M-2M) up to nearly game force, where responder plans on raising to 3M.

 

That is a lot to try to describe on the next round of bidding. The 2C that Flytoox is describing in this post off-loads some of these hands from the 1NT response to 2C. First it off-loads all hands with 3 card support either weak or strong. (1M-2M, shows 3 card support too weak for 2C response). Second, it off loads all the good balanced hands, say good 10hcp+. This provides a number of bidding enhancement. For instance, 2NT rebids after 1NT forcing take on entirely new meanings if this can't be the typical 10-12 point hands. This can help resolve the very bad one suiters from the good one suiter from the fair one suiters, especially if you add BART, anti-bart and impossible 2S to your forcing 1NT auctions. It even allows a totally new meaning to this auction... 1H-1NT-2C-3H... if responder can have only 2H, what do you think this 3H bid must show? The answer is a very great club fit and doubleton heart honor. Now magic fit slams after focing 1NT based upon fitting honor in the major and great minor fit are possible, as well as getting back into the major with a good minor fit. Such discussions might be for another thread.

 

But if 2C can be one of the several hand types, how does the auction continue. Well, the first is that opener needs a chance to bail if he is facing a hand where he would not bid game if facing a hand with 3 card support and 11-12 points (or less). The way to do this is to rebid 2M, which responder passes. The advantange is that you are safely at the two level, where the forcing 1NT guys are at the three level after 1M-1N-2m-3M-P.

 

Most of the time, opener will want to know more about responders hand, so he can bid 2D which is forcing to 2NT, and ask responder for clarification. Here responder can bid 2NT/3NT/4NT with 10-12, 13-15, 16-18 hcp and less than 3 card support. Or he can bid any new suit (including 3D) or rebid 3C or 3M with a real 2/1 game force with five cards + in clubs, and the bid suit. Or he can jump to 4M as "picture bid" or 4C (most excellent club suit, + Major fit).

 

So what does responder do with the 3 card support hand and 11-12 hcp or less? He bids 2M, which is forcing one round (since opener did not try to signoff with 2M). If opener is willing to stop only opposite 8-10 hcp, he can raise 2M to 3M, anything else is game force.

 

A couple of notes here. After 1M-2C-2D-3M, opener has shown around 14+ hcp (with 2D) and 3M shows clubs, and a control in at least one of the other two suits. So a lot of information has been exchanged. Opener can now cue-bid 3S if possible, use serious 3NT (to show better than his good 13 to bad 15), or cue-bid 4m to show a minimial 2D response and control in the bid suit. This greatly improves slam judgement as both partners have shared a lot of info... for instance...

 

1H-2C (2C=multi meaning)

2D-3H (2D= willing to bid game opposite 11-12 with support)

4C-4D (3H = game force, clubs plus heart support, S or D con)

4H-P (4C = Club con, no S control, no "serious" slam int, 13/14 pts)

(4D = last train, shows spade control)

(4H = all I can do, with D control I would bid again)

 

Now either player could bid 4NT (West over 4D, EAST over 4H) as blackwood, or 5D as lackwood. East made a strong slam try with his 4D bid and WEST showed that his 2D bid was dead minimum.

 

Another feature of this "style" is that is allows a "lawful" raise of 1H to 2H on such hands as S-xx H-xxx D-Jxxx C-xxxx. Maybe that is not something you would want to do (no one forces you to bid 2H), but you can bid it if you like. Since partner will generally expect no more the 7 hcp for 1H-2H, or maybe 4-3-3-3 hand with 8 hcp.

 

If anyone is intrested we can discuss how to continue on 1S-2C-2H auctions and how to separate the hands types when the opponents interfer (when should opener "raise clubs" what does responder different bids mean when he may or may not have clubs?).

 

Ben

[flytoox]

Ben, it seems now we can give 1NT back its original meaning. It is not forcing anymore. Right? So if opener bid again, it must show he has more than min and unbalanced hand.

 

Secondly, 2c includes hand with 3-card spt and 8-12HCP. I feel somewhat this range is a bit large. This is why i think of 2d as showing 11-12hcp 3-card raise. Most of the time we will bid a game with this kind hand opposing pd's 1M opening.

 

 

Another problem wiht this raise structure, since 1M-2N shows limited raise or better plus 4-card spt, now we can use 1M-3M as weak preempt. But how to handle hand with 7-9HCP, four card spt? This problem is more important than those hand with 10-12HCP, four-card spt hand. With 10-12hcp and 4 card raise, we will go to game most of time and dont need to worry about overbid. But with 7-9HCP and 4card spt, we want to explore the possibility of game and make sure we dont overbid at the same time.

[flytoox]

Overloaded forcing 1NT...

 

In standard 2/1 game force, the 1NT response is terrifically overloaded, especially if you play bergen raises.

 

1) To start off with, it can be very weak one suiter (since preemptive jump shift is removed due to bergen).

 

2) and can be fair value, one suiter, but not enough for 2/1

 

3) it can be modest value, one suit

 

4) it can be balanced anywhere from 7 or 8 right on up, depending upon what 1M-3NT means

 

5) It can have three card support for major and be either very weak (not good enough for 1M-2M) up to nearly game force, where responder plans on raising to 3M.

 

 

Ben, I am a bit worried 2c will become another version of 1NT:)

[hrothgar]

I wouldn't worry about overbidding with constructive raises that include 4 card trump support.

You're Law protected at the 3 level and should do fine.

 

Most modern 4 card major systems immediately jump to 3M with this same hand type and they are "only" guarunteed an 8 card fit.

[flytoox]

 

I wouldn't worry about overbidding with constructive raises that include 4 card trump support.

You're Law protected at the 3 level and should do fine.

 

Most modern 4 card major systems immediately jump to 3M with this same hand type and they are "only" guarunteed an 8 card fit.

 

 

Yes, but we need to distinguish those 4card with 0-6hcp hands from those 4card and 7-9hcp hands. While we will bid to the 3 level anyway, the purpose is different. The former is two-way shot, either destructive or we can make. But facing 7-9hcp and 4 card raise, your bid is mainly constructive. You want to bid a game and hoping you can make it.

[inquiry]

Ben, it seems now we can give 1NT back its original meaning. It is not forcing anymore. Right? So if opener bid again, it must show he has more than min and unbalanced hand.

 

1NT is best described as semi-forcing, and bear in mind it can contain a very weak hand with a long suit and a singleton or void. The one thing it can not contain is a game forcing hand or anykind of fit for openers first suit. This makes passing it desirable (in standard 2/1 where 1NT can hide a fit or have a balanced hand with game forcing values, pass is not an option).

 

Secondly, 2c includes hand with 3-card spt and 8-12HCP. I feel somewhat this range is a bit large.

 

Well, the way you describe this range, the range you quote is a full point larger than it is in reality. I think the careful description is a GOOD 8 to bad 11. The assumption is that with a good 12, you will be forcing to game. If you have a three card fit, and enough for game but no club suit, you are still relatively safe on the top end. Look at the most likley auctions...

 

1M-2C (4M here no longer picture bid. Partner

2M-4M was willing to stop in 2M oppote 3 card

P support and 11-12, so this is to play. the

assumption is 5+C and M fit, but no harm

done if you are an upgrade 12/13 or bad 14)

 

1M-2C (once again, now with a yucky 13 you can bid

2D-2S "only 2S" as it is forcing one round due to the

2D bid)

 

This is why i think of 2d as showing 11-12hcp 3-card raise. Most of the time we will bid a game with this kind hand opposing pd's 1M opening.

 

It really is not needed imho, but waht the heck, build the structure and try it out. That kind of thing is fun. When you find pluses and minuses, then you decide whether it is a good idea or not. :-) Maybe some day I will tell you the "invintational 2D" structure I build as a response to 1NT opening bids.

 

Another problem wiht this raise structure, since 1M-2N shows limited raise or better plus 4-card spt, now we can use 1M-3M as weak preempt. But how to handle hand with 7-9HCP, four card spt?

 

First, 0-7 and four card support just jump to 3M. Next remember we have freed up jump shifts as fit jumps. So when you have four card support, 7 to 10 ish, and a side suit (doesn't necessarily have to be five, but usually is) with some feature to it (Axxxx is not a good suit for it), you make the fit jump. If you have a side suit singleton, you can instead splinter if you think you have enough for game, or you can make the fit jump and then bid the short suit if partner tries to signoff (showing both side fit, short suit, and game value..but not too much game value since no 2/1).

 

But with 7-9HCP and 4card spt, we want to explore the possibility of game and make sure we dont overbid at the same time.

 

Exactly, which is where fit jumps are worth their weight in gold. You descibe your fit, your second suit, you limit your hand (not quite good enough for limit raise or better) and where you stuff is located (the fit jump suit). Fit jumps with limit plus 2NT with multi-meaning 2C are designed to work together.

[inquiry]

Ben, I am a bit worried 2c will become another version of 1NT:)

 

Easy solution. Don't play it then. :-)

 

2C is used artificially by a lot of systems that use 1NT as forcing. DC standard it establishes game force and may, or may not show clubs. Other systems it establishes artificial game force and starts relay sequence so responder can find out more about opener's hand.

 

The system we are discussing here, in effect, it becomes a partial extension to 1NT forcing. That is, it removes the "very good hands" that are covered in 1NT forcing,, the big balanced hands and the nice hands with 3 card fits. It also frees up 1M-2M to include all the BAD hands with 3 card fits. So basically ANY hand with a three card fit no longer goes through 1NT.

 

But the scope of the 2C bid is very narrow. It is constructive 3 card raise or better, balanced hand game try or better, or real two over one game force with 5+ clubs with or without a fit. That is it. So it is not the morass that 1NT is.

 

If the opponents interfer with the 2C auction they do so at their own risk. Resonder can have big balanced hand with no fit (evne 18 not impossible), he can have true 2 over 1 with no fit and game force value, or he can have modest 3 card fit. Add Garazzo 2/3 dble to opener's bid over an interference call and bidding is very dangerous. Even a "takeout double" of 2C or a "lead diercting" double of 2C is risky. In the first case becasue responder my not have clubs, and in the second case becasue he may.

 

Ben

[Felix]

Here in italy this structure has become pretty popular. I think it was originally devised by Garozzo for Schools National team

 

1M-2C is a GF relay, after first rebid by opener responder can either continue to relay or bid naturally showing a GF hand with C

1M-2D is either 3 card fit, 8-11 (can also be 4 cards, 7-8), or GF with D

1M-2M is a bad 3 card raise

1M-2NT is 4 card raise, either limit or too strong to splinter (4 card bal GF raises relay to 2C)

1M-3M is bad 4 card raise

Jumps are natural and invitational (maybe it would be better to play fit showing? i've never tried it)

1M-3NT/4C/4D are splinters in the next higher suit, 10-13

 

I've been playing this for about 1 year, and i find it pretty effective.

 

Felix

[flytoox]

Here in italy this structure has become pretty popular. I think it was originally devised by Garozzo for Schools National team

 

1M-2C is a GF relay, after first rebid by opener responder can either continue to relay or bid naturally showing a GF hand with C

1M-2D is either 3 card fit, 8-11 (can also be 4 cards, 7-8), or GF with D

1M-2M is a bad 3 card raise

1M-2NT is 4 card raise, either limit or too strong to splinter (4 card bal GF raises relay to 2C)

1M-3M is bad 4 card raise

Jumps are natural and invitational (maybe it would be better to play fit showing? i've never tried it)

1M-3NT/4C/4D are splinters in the next higher suit, 10-13

 

I've been playing this for about 1 year, and i find it pretty effective.

 

Felix

 

sounds good, Garozzo and Belladona are my heroes. Can you post the more detailed continuation here if possible? Thanks very much.

[inquiry]

Fly,

 

The solution Felix mentions that 2C can be any game force hand akin to DC standard, and 2D is either real diamond gf, or 8-11 hcp with 3 card support (or tad weaker with 4 card support) is much more sound than separating the 8-10 3 card support from the 11-12 three card support.

 

Then you have to get into the relay structure after the 2C response, of course. But this is one of the systems I was talking about with 2C starting game force relay.

 

ben

[flytoox]

 

]

 

 

But with 7-9HCP and 4card spt, we want to explore the possibility of game and make sure we dont overbid at the same time.

 

Exactly, which is where fit jumps are worth their weight in gold. You descibe your fit, your second suit, you limit your hand (not quite good enough for limit raise or better) and where you stuff is located (the fit jump suit). Fit jumps with limit plus 2NT with multi-meaning 2C are designed to work together.

 

Fit showing jump is a picture bid. With xx kxxx, aqtxx,xx, I will bid 3d, fit showing, no problem. But with xx ktxx axxx, qxx. What do you bid? 3H is too weak for this hand. 2N is too strong.

[mishovnbg]

Hi friends!

Do you looking about development of systems of best scientific pairs in the world? In my opinion, before to try to invent bicycle again, need to read about it...

Mekstrot-Rodwell, Bocchi-Duboin, Fantony-Nunes, Rumen-Kalin....

I will not do here analysis for all their systems, but tendency is to not differ raises to 2 of major by bidding at 2 level. Different systems but same way! By the way it is only result of one of general approach in modern science system - dont vaste bids for ANY sign offs. Is it right way, can answer only future, but at the moment I prefer to believe of right vision of best pairs in the world :B).

Misho

[inquiry]

 

Fit showing jump is a picture bid. With xx kxxx, aqtxx,xx, I will bid 3d, fit showing, no problem. But with xx ktxx axxx, qxx. What do you bid? 3H is too weak for this hand. 2N is too strong.

 

Obviously I would simply not be able to bid that hand, so I would just sit there until the opponents got tired and left. :-) Seriously, this is a problem of judgement. What would I do with this hand depends upon the nature of the game and vulnerability.

 

First, clearly fit jump with this hand is not possible. I think the problem you are having is the concept that 2C can't include 4 card support. With good values it can't but with a hand with poor ODR (offensive to defensive ratio), of course you can have 4 card support. This hand certainly falls into this category. At imps, if I was vul, I would down grade this hand and treat it as "3-card" support 9-10 points and bid 2C. Why is it "safe" to down grade this hand at imps when vul? Because partner is likely to stretch to game, and if he does, he will be happy to see the extra values and 4th trump and if he is willing to sign off you certain have bid enough. But if you pump the hand up and bid 2NT, when your partner stretches to what in his mind will be a touch and go game, he will be very disappointed with dummy.

 

And if we were not vulnerable at imps, I would treat this as a "limit raise" based upon 9 hcp and ruffing value in spades. As you know the structure for limit raise is 2NT (limit raise or better). Why? Because partner will be less likely to strech to bid game, given the vul. As a side benefit, the 2NT bid shuts out the spade suit from LHO. And when you are not vul, your partner is less likely to bid bid game on "hope".

 

Now at matchpoints I would simply bid 2C and treat the hand as a "constructive raise". Following this 2C bid, I will bid as straight down the middle as I can.

[Poky]

I use this structure and find it very powerful:

 

After 1H opening:

1S - relay, 5-11, 0-4S

1NT - 5+S

2C - GF relay

2D - TRF support

a) 10-11 BAL with 3H

B) 8-11 with 3H UNB

c) 6-8 mini SPL

d) 9-11 with any void, 4+H

2H - support, up to 9 LT

2S - 4/5H, BAL, 7-11

2NT - GF, 4+H, any SGL

3m - 6+m, 8-11 INV. good suit

3H - preemptive

3NT - 12+, any void, 4+H

3S/4C/4D - 9-11 SGL, 4+H

4H - 6-8, 5/6H UNB

 

After 1S opening:

1NT - 5-11, semi-forcing

2C - GF relay

2D - TRF for hearts

a) 8-11 with goog 6H

B) GF with good 5+H

2H - TRF support

a) 10-11 BAL with 3S

B) 8-11 with 3S UNB

c) 6-8 mini SPL

d) 9-11 with any void, 4+S

2S - support, up to 9 LT

2NT - 4/5H, BAL, 7-11

3m - 6+m, 8-11 INV. good suit

3H - GF, 4+S, any SGL

3S - preemptive

3NT - 12+, any void, 4+S

4C/4D/4H - 9-11 SGL, 4+S

4S - 6-8, 5/6S UNB

 

It was inspired by Bocchi-Duboin notes and little simplified! B)

[flytoox]

 

Fit showing jump is a picture bid. With xx kxxx, aqtxx,xx, I will bid 3d, fit showing, no problem. But with xx ktxx axxx, qxx. What do you bid? 3H is too weak for this hand. 2N is too strong.

 

Obviously I would simply not be able to bid that hand, so I would just sit there until the opponents got tired and left. :-) Seriously, this is a problem of judgement. What would I do with this hand depends upon the nature of the game and vulnerability.

 

First, clearly fit jump with this hand is not possible. I think the problem you are having is the concept that 2C can't include 4 card support. With good values it can't but with a hand with poor ODR (offensive to defensive ratio), of course you can have 4 card support. This hand certainly falls into this category. At imps, if I was vul, I would down grade this hand and treat it as "3-card" support 9-10 points and bid 2C. Why is it "safe" to down grade this hand at imps when vul? Because partner is likely to stretch to game, and if he does, he will be happy to see the extra values and 4th trump and if he is willing to sign off you certain have bid enough. But if you pump the hand up and bid 2NT, when your partner stretches to what in his mind will be a touch and go game, he will be very disappointed with dummy.

 

And if we were not vulnerable at imps, I would treat this as a "limit raise" based upon 9 hcp and ruffing value in spades. As you know the structure for limit raise is 2NT (limit raise or better). Why? Because partner will be less likely to strech to bid game, given the vul. As a side benefit, the 2NT bid shuts out the spade suit from LHO. And when you are not vul, your partner is less likely to bid bid game on "hope".

 

Now at matchpoints I would simply bid 2C and treat the hand as a "constructive raise". Following this 2C bid, I will bid as straight down the middle as I can.

 

 

 

 

Ben, I think it will be good to distinguish 3card raise and 4card raise. This is so important for pd. I dont mind a wild HCP range, but do mind how many trumps pd's raise has.

[inquiry]

Ben, I think it will be good to distinguish 3card raise and 4card raise. This is so important for pd. I dont mind a wild HCP range, but do mind how many trumps pd's raise has.

 

Well, as a rule I agree with on the number of trumps. As you know from bidding practice with me, I like to raise to the level of trump fit. But there is a concept of offensive to defensive ratio that I first heard about in reading Robson/Segal's excellent book. R/S are great advocates of bidding the level of trump fit and have all kinds of tools to show the number of trumps in support during competition. However, they recommend treating some four card support hands as three card support... and it is exaclty the kind of hand you showed... ones with low offensive value compared to defensive value. When you think about it, this is the time to softpedal bidding to the level of trump fit when fighting for part-scores. I have found my bidding seems to be better when I pay attention to this feature.

 

Our friend Misho pointed out a lot of the alternative methods using 2C and 2D as artificial responses to 1M. And Pokey went further to list his interpretation/simplification of the one of the italian pairs that Misho mentioned. These systems with 2C absolute game force and having 2D response by opener as "minimum" often become relay oriented with one partner asking and the other telling. I am not opposed to relays, but I think trying to stay "natural" has some advantages for us simple minded folks (read me). I add to that a number of ways to express slam interest by one or both partners and my bidding seems to be ok. Of course, a relay auction where you can find distribution, number of controls, and location of specific minor honors will lead to more precise slam bidding if you can remember your agreements

 

Ben

[flytoox]

I am not opposed to relays, but I think trying to stay "natural" has some advantages for us simple minded folks (read me). I add to that a number of ways to express slam interest by one or both partners and my bidding seems to be ok. Of course, a relay auction where you can find distribution, number of controls, and location of specific minor honors will lead to more precise slam bidding if you can remember your agreements

 

Ben

 

Yes, I hope it is as natural as possible, with some necessary artificial bids. otherwise, better to rename it as superprecision or whatever. The merits of 2/1 or sayc are that most of bids are natural. adding too much conventions will mess up things only i belive.

[luke warm]

hi guys.. trying to follow this (i wasn't in the bidding room long enough to grasp the concept)... is this right or wrong?

 

1M : 2C = either 8-11 3 card support OR gf with clubs OR 10-13 balanced?

 

1M : 2C

2D = better than min, from 14 on?

 

1M : 2C

2M = 10-12, 13 5 card major?

 

i think i read in one of your posts that now 1NT is "semi" forcing, meaning it can be passed.. if this is true, how does responder show the 6 card preemptive suit? is it possible to go to the old "unless rebid" system? such as

1M : 2C

2any : 3C

or

1M : 2D

2any : 3D

or even

1M : 2C

3C : p

 

if bergen (or fit jumps) used, that seems only way to reach those hand types

 

thx... btw, saw brad and fred tues nite blue ribbon pairs... they seemed to be doing ok, but hard to judge those things

[flytoox]

how does responder show the 6 card preemptive suit?

 

good point. Last night i had such a hand:

S: X

H: XX

D: JTX

C: QJT87XX

 

Ben opened 1S, I passed. Seems 1N followed by 3c better. Currently, 1N can still include this kind offshape response.

[inquiry]

hi guys.. trying to follow this (i wasn't in the bidding room long enough to grasp the concept)... is this right or wrong?

 

1M : 2C = either 8-11 3 card support OR gf with clubs OR 10-13 balanced?

 

 

1M : 2C

2M = 10-12, 13 5 card major?

 

 

Hi,

 

If you instant message me, I will be happy to share with you the notes on what it is we are trying to do here. The big picture is:

 

1M -

2M = weak 3 card raise (bad 8 hcp or less)

3M = preemptive 4 card raise (0-7 hcp, 4 card support)

3C/3D = fit jump, not forcing beyond 3M. less than GF value (else 2/1)

2NT = limit raise or better (most common replies are

3C = I would not bid game opposite limit raise OR slam try

3D = I do accept game try opposite limit raise, but no slam interest)

2C = true 2/1 game force, or

any balance hand with 11-12 hcp (2/3 card support), or

balanance hand with 13+ hcp and 2 card support, or

constructive 2 level raise (8-9 hcp, with 3 or 4 card support), or

3 card limit raise with 3 card support (11-12)

 

Your speculation that:

1M : 2C

2D = better than min, from 14 on?

 

Is right on target. This is backwards from the replies many others use. For instance, after 2C, many people who use 2C as artificial use 2D as the only "minimum response". We use the more natural sounding 2M.

 

You also read correctly that 1NT is now only "semi-forcing". There is a reason for this. In standard 2/1 GF, the 1NT response can hold a fit for the major (say 11-12 with 3 card fit). That can;t happen here. Also, many people play that 1NT can hold balanced hand with 13-15 or even more (if no five card fit suit exist). So clearly, if the forcing 1NT can contain a game forcing hand, it can never be safely passed.

 

Here, the big NT hands and the fit hands are removed from 1NT. It is still semi-forcing and should be almost never passed. I think the answer to your question about how to handle a hand with a preemptive 6 card suit needs to be handled in another thread on the off-loaded 1NT response. But you are right, we also do not allow "preemptive" jumpshift here. Instead, we use the fit jump mechanisms. Let me handle just the two examples you gave....

 

1M : 2C 1M : 2D 1M : 2C

2any : 3C 2any : 3D 3C : p

 

First, not all 1M-1NT-2any-3C auctions are created the same. This is because we have availabe BART, impossible 2S, etc. Let's look at the different ways to show club support

 

1S - 1NT - 2C - 3C (play this as weak, five card raise, but pass weakest)

1S - 1NT - 2C - 2D - 2x - 3C (using BART, strong raise)

1S - 1NT - 2C - 3S - max club fit probably 6 and doublton S honor

 

BTW.. on this auction with BART and impossible 2S available...

1H - 1NT - 2C - 3D shows weak hand with long diamonds

1H - 1NT - 2C - 2S (impossible 2S shows relay to 2NT)

1H-1NT-2C-2S-2NT-3C = good club raise

1H-1NT-2C-2S-2NT-3D = good diamond suit

1H - 1NT - 2C - 2NT show singleton H, suggest long D and club tolerance (3-1-5-4, 2-1-6-3) remember balanced hand go through 2C

1H - 1NT - 2D - 2S = same relay with 3C/3D showing good suit

 

Now, BART or impossible 2S is not available on two auctions...

 

1S - 1NT - 2H or,

1S - 1NT - 2D

 

Here we play reverse good/bad 2NT... so that

 

1S - 1NT - 2H - 3C/3D = weak

1S - 1NT - 2H - 2NT = reverse good/bad 2NT opener will not bid 3C if he would continue over a good 3C bid. Originally we played nornal good bad, but that meant remembering that immediate 3C was weak sometimes and strong sometimes. Reversing it made it easier to remember.

 

Let's look at just one example... when responder has hearts...

 

1S - 1NT - 2D - 2H - weakest bid.. I want to play 2H

1S - 1NT - 2D - 3H = mildly game invite in hearts, see next auction

1S - 1Nt - 2D - 2NT* - 3C* - 3H - strongest way, very close to 2/1 bid

 

Of course all three heart bids above can be passed or opener can make game try over 2H or bid game over either 3H bids. You can get way with 2NT being "tolerance" for minor or reverse good bad in the above auctions because the balanced hand responses are taken out of the 1NT response hands (thanks to 2C bid).

 

 

 

Ben

[Felix]

I use this structure and find it very powerful:

 

After 1H opening:

1S - relay, 5-11, 0-4S

1NT - 5+S

2C - GF relay

2D - TRF support

a) 10-11 BAL with 3H

B) 8-11 with 3H UNB

c) 6-8 mini SPL

d) 9-11 with any void, 4+H

2H - support, up to 9 LT

2S - 4/5H, BAL, 7-11

2NT - GF, 4+H, any SGL

3m - 6+m, 8-11 INV. good suit

3H - preemptive

3NT - 12+, any void, 4+H

3S/4C/4D - 9-11 SGL, 4+H

4H - 6-8, 5/6H UNB

 

After 1S opening:

1NT - 5-11, semi-forcing

2C - GF relay

2D - TRF for hearts

a) 8-11 with goog 6H

B) GF with good 5+H

2H - TRF support

a) 10-11 BAL with 3S

B) 8-11 with 3S UNB

c) 6-8 mini SPL

d) 9-11 with any void, 4+S

2S - support, up to 9 LT

2NT - 4/5H, BAL, 7-11

3m - 6+m, 8-11 INV. good suit

3H - GF, 4+S, any SGL

3S - preemptive

3NT - 12+, any void, 4+S

4C/4D/4H - 9-11 SGL, 4+S

4S - 6-8, 5/6S UNB

 

It was inspired by Bocchi-Duboin notes and little simplified! B)

 

I'm not fond of systems that force you to relay with all GF hands, i think that natural bidding has a lot of merit...it's good to have the choice wether to ask p to describe his hand or to bid naturally and describe your hand.

 

Felix

[luke warm]

how does responder show the 6 card preemptive suit?

 

good point. Last night i had such a hand:

S: X

H: XX

D: JTX

C: QJT87XX

 

Ben opened 1S, I passed. Seems 1N followed by 3c better. Currently, 1N can still include this kind offshape response.

 

still no good, because what if it had gone:

1S : 1NT : pass ?

 

if 1nt isn't forcing, it isn't forcing.. can't have it both ways.. seems to me like 1M : 2m : any : 3m might work

[luke warm]

The big picture is:

~~snipped to keep from putting too much in one msg, thanks very much for all you wrote and i look forward to those notes

 

i think i like this... i'm not fond of the whole etm structure (what i read of it anyway), since i simply *love* the micro NT i play, and some of it would interfere...

 

could 3H be a fit raise over 1S? i suppose so, i can't see much use for a mini splinter there (tho it's possible)

 

after 1M : 2C, any bid other than 2D or 2M shows what? i think 1H : 2C : 2S should be jump shift, and i think 2NT should show 5 trumps, no aversion to nt, and a hand that is at least of nt playing strength (i'm sure all this is answered in your notes, i'll wait and read it there).. i also think 1S : 2C : 2H should show a real suit, but i'm not quite sure how strong it should be

 

the absolute best thing about all this is, it forces THOUGHT... too often i've found myself bidding without much of that B)

 

i would like to incorporate this major suit structure into 2/1, but i sure would like to keep my minor suit (criss cross) and no trump treatments

 

thx for your time, i look forward to reading those notes