To save or not to save

[dcvetkov]

[hv=d=e&v=b&s=sq109xxxhxxdxcaqjx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

You have this collection as South and hear this bidding.

 

 

East South West North

2C* Pass 2D** Pass

2H Pass 4H Pass

Pass ?

 

* Strong

** Waiting

 

Do you bid 4 spades? Do you expect to be a good save?

Would u bid it if you have QJ109xx?

Would u bid at favorable vul?

[Finch]

I would have bid over 2C at any vulnerability or form of scoring, not wait until they have bid to 4H and then guess if we have a fit.

 

At game all (or at red) I would probably bid only 2S over 2C. Non Vul I would have bid 3S.

[blackshoe]

I would have bid over 2C at any vulnerability or form of scoring, not wait until they have bid to 4H and then guess if we have a fit.

No fair! You read Robson and Segal's Partnership Bidding at Bridge! :(

[Finch]

errmm... I don't want to sound too old, but I've been bidding over 2C openings since before that book was published.

[blackshoe]

errmm... I don't want to sound too old, but I've been bidding over 2C openings since before that book was published.

That would make you what? At least fourteen or so? :(

 

I did consider "You've played this game before!" as an alternative lament. :lol:

[mikeh]

Frances is bang-on: this is a non-question had you bid (as you should) over 2♣.

 

Had I been called upon to fill in for the original south (who was getting seriously ill when he realized that he'd put the pass card out by mistake) I would pass. Bidding 4♠ now, after the opps have described their hands, is worse than the pass had been.

[dcvetkov]

Ok,

 

But let suppose somebody put a gun to your hand and you had to pass 2C

Do you prefer passing to bidding 4 spades and why?

[mikeh]

Ok, 

 

But let suppose somebody put a gun to your hand and you had to pass 2C

Do you prefer passing to bidding 4 spades and why?

I pass.

 

The opponents have described their hands to each other. Competent opps will thus be well positioned to 'guess correctly': choosing to double when right and to bid 5♥ when right.

 

Of course, it may be that 4♥ is the limit on the hand and that 4♠ is no more than 500, so that they cannot guess correctly.

 

But that is a very narrow target.

 

In essence, you have allowed the opps to maximize their exchange of information and then taken a unilateral action, should you bid... moreover, that unilateral action is inconsistent with an earlier unilateral action: the pass over 2♣.

 

It is always better to involve partner unless you hold an extremely unusual hand, which this is not. But if you make a decision such as the pass, stay with it. Assume that your original choice was correct, stay consistent with it.

 

Not only is this the best advice based on your hand, it is also the best advice in terms of keeping a good player happy as your partner. He may well and justifiably be annoyed that you passed 2♣, but to pass and then bid 4♠ would be a partnership-destroying bid: one unilateral action on a board is bad: two mutually inconsistent unilateral decisions makes it exponentially worse. So pass 4♥.. and if 4♠ would have worked, apologize to partner for not bidding the first time... if he accepts that apology, a good player will understand why you passed the second time.

[HeartA]

I would have bid over 2C at any vulnerability or form of scoring, not wait until they have bid to 4H and then guess if we have a fit.

 

At game all (or at red) I would probably bid only 2S over 2C. Non Vul I would have bid 3S.

I would do the same. To ask the question after "forcing" me to pass 2C is not fair.

[pclayton]

Ok,

 

But let suppose somebody put a gun to your hand and you had to pass 2C

Do you prefer passing to bidding 4 spades and why?

I wouldn't ask a question like this. The relevant response from Mike and Frances is:

 

"I wouldn't pass 2♣, so saving is a guess".

 

I think what you are trying to determine if a blind save with a hand like this is a good idea. I would pose the question like this:

 

RHO opens 3♥. You pass with this and LHO bids 4♥ at equal vul. Do you save?

 

(I think this question is partially flawed, since a 3♠ overcall is reasonable. But its more realistic than the question posed).

[HeartA]

Ok,

 

But let suppose somebody put a gun to your hand and you had to pass 2C

Do you prefer passing to bidding 4 spades and why?

Is the gun still pointing at me? If so, what does the gun holder want me to bid? If not, I refuse to play this hand.

[dcvetkov]

[hv=d=e&v=b&n=sxhxxxd10xxxck10xxx&s=sq109xxxhxxdxcaqjx]133|200|[/hv]

 

4S was bid at the table and contract went down 4, -1100

 

RHO had something like AKJx AQJxx AK xx

 

Unlucky? You make your own destiny I guess.

BTW opponents are cold for slam in heart or diamonds, they just lack club control ( clubs are 2-2)

[Blofeld]

BTW opponents are cold for slam in heart or diamonds, they just lack club control ( clubs are 2-2)

Doesn't that make them ... not cold for slam?

[dcvetkov]

BTW opponents are cold for slam in heart or diamonds, they just lack club control ( clubs are 2-2)

Doesn't that make them ... not cold for slam?

Yes that makes them not cold

 

But they not tried very hard to find whether they have one or made some probe toward slam. If clubs are 3-1, then this story ( and a bad bid) would be very successfull ( -800 vs -1430)

 

Yes, I know what you will say;) With singleton club, one of the opps will get some excitment about slam.

[Blofeld]

But in the auction you're balancing they aren't going to get 1430 if you pass - they're going to get 680.

[neilkaz]

Bridge is a partnership game !

 

The way to get PD's cooperation in this auction is to overcall 2S over 2C, which also makes opposing communication more difficult even if the opps have their system down well. Now if PD has spades, he bids 4S right over what ever responder calls and this may really put the opps to a guess.

 

Passing and then backing in with 4S is simply hideous and quite unlikely to show a profit.

 

Almost anytime, I stretch to impede adv/exp pickup opps' 2C bidding, I get a decent result. Often bcuz they don't know how to continue after interference.

 

NV the other week, I had a lousy weak 2 in ♦ but white vs Red, I overcalled 2C with 3D and ended up doubled and -5 for -1100. My adv+ pickup PD left me before the opening lead !!..but I still ended up + Imps since almost every other pair bid to an ice cold slam.

 

Other times, I have been dead to rights after an overcall, but one of the opps saves me.

 

Obviously, you need some kind of suit and a reason to overcall after 2C. Hopefully, PD also fits and then can jack it up and put the opps to the last guess as to whether to double your advanced sac or try a slam or stop in 5.

 

.. neilkaz ..

[kenrexford]

Actually, this auction brings up a more interesting issue.

 

Assume that 2♣-2♠ immediately would show a better or longer spade suit. If the auction proceeds as shown, to 2♥ from Opener, what is a delayed 2♠ supposed to mean? What would a double of a forcing 2♥, instead, show?

 

IMO, because a three-suited takeout makes little sense, and because 2NT, delayed or immediate, must be minor-oriented, each of 2♠ and double should show a spade-minor two-suiter, with 2NT the advance to inquire. 2♠ should probably be for the 6-4 variety, and double for the 5-5.

 

5♣ seems to be a better sacrifice, only down two tricks if the AK of spades is doubleton, or if spades are 3-3 and clubs behave, or even if AJ or KJ is tight in Opener's hand.

[SoTired]

Of course you must pass 4H. Once you pass 2C, you cannot bid 4S.

 

The question is partnership trust. It is similar to opening a sub-strength hand and partner makes a game-force. You cannot later pass below game when the bidding becomes difficult on the reasoning that the hand is sub-strength. Your bidding has to be consistent from one bid to the next.

 

This type of question is impossible to answer. It's similar to asking, "Would you divorce Pam Anderson if she cheated?"