2C-2D-2S-5S in SAYC

[neilkaz]

[hv=d=w&v=e&n=saqt97ha7dak8ckq5&w=shdc&e=shdc&s=sj632h93dqj973ca4]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

My first attempt at posting a hand diagram here (is there a direct way to copy saved hands to this msg board easily ?) and my first hand tonite with a pickup Canadian expert. He didn't have Puppet listed and played SAYC, Bergen, RKC and that was about it. If he'd listed Puppet I open 2♣ and rebid 2NT, but here, after a few seconds thought I went for 2♠ which I fear may not be best even w/out Puppet after the normal 2♦ waiting. But he has 8 somewhat scattered HCP and 2NT is supposed to show that, but not so clear with his distribution and so easy to confuse a pickup PD.

 

So..after my 2♠ he jumps to 5♠ !!! ...hmm... since I should promise rather strong trump, this would seem to be quantative and since, at the very best, I may have 1 point of playing strength more than the worst hand I'd open 2♣ with, I reluctantly passed. Ignore dummy and do you also pass, expecting a bit less ?

 

Anyhow, as you may imagine I don't care for his bid, even though we quickly agreed it was quant. But with 10 points in support of ♠ and and an ace and the likelyhood that we have 10 spades between us (I often will have 6 or 7), I strongly think that PD is supposed to flash slam interest with 3♠ and hopefully we can find our almost ice cold slam. (It was a laydown even with the K of ♠ offside and a ♥ lead since I pitch on ♣).

 

So..playing SAYC with 2♦ waiting, how do you bid our hands ?

 

thx .. neilkaz ..

[TheoKole]

I would bid it in the following way;

 

2 ♣ - P - 2 ♦* - P

2 ♠ - P - 3 ♠** - P

4 NT***- P - 5 ♦ or 5 ♣**** - P

6 ♠ - P - P - P

 

 

* (Waiting)

** (Strong - no singleton otherwise would use Splinter)

*** (Lots of controls so no worries about 2 quick losers)

**** (Depending whether you use 3041 or 4130 Blackwood)

 

Cheers,

Theo

[kenberg]

I believe in taking a generous view of partner's choices but here it is simply impossible to understand the jump to 5S. From his vantage point, the ace of clubs is a trick. From yours, if you find out about it, it fits nicely with your KQx of clubs. He cannot know how useful his ace is or isn't, you cannot know from his jump whether he has it. More precisely, I think his jump, if it means anything at all, denies that he has it.

 

A raise to 3S seems clearcut. After this, 6S seems likely although it could fail if partner has the Axx in clubs, Kxx(x) of spades, and a bunch of spots in the red suits. That holding will give you 11 tricks only. On the other hand, if partner holds Ax of clubs, the king of spades and the Q of diamonds, 13 tricks are likely to be there. My bidding skills and agreements simply are not up to the task of determining this, so I imagine after 3S I simply trot out rkc and then bid 6S. I'll be interested in seeing better approaches.

 

By the way. In the old "Aces Scientific", a sensible approach to the waiting 2D is discussed, although it seems to have vanished from use. Afer 2C-2D-2S, responder bids 2NT and then supports spades when he has a modest (5-7 hcp) positive response to spades and raises 2S to 3S directly with better. This can at least help with sorting out what can be expected from the raise to 3S. It has always seemed to me something like this is needed if 2D is a waiting bid that can actually contain something like, say, the king of spades, the ace of clubs, and the queen of diamonds.

 

Ken

[Winstonm]

I don't care for 5S either. Thinking about it logically, 5S should deny an ability to cue bid in any other suit yet show some degree of slam interest. If you don't hold even a King or a singleton in an outside suit, what could possibly propel you to explore slam? Good trumps? (Btw, I do not think the 2S rebid always shows good trumps - it may be long fair trumps and a great hand. AJxxxxx, AK, AK, Kx.)

 

In this auction, what else can you do to encourage slam with:

 

KQxx

xx

Qxxx

Jxx

 

In the pickup auction, I think it would go:

 

2C-2D

2S-3S

and explore from there.

[neilkaz]

I don't care for 5S either. Thinking about it logically, 5S should deny an ability to cue bid in any other suit yet show some degree of slam interest. If you don't hold even a King or a singleton in an outside suit, what could possibly propel you to explore slam? Good trumps? (Btw, I do not think the 2S rebid always shows good trumps - it may be long fair trumps and a great hand. AJxxxxx, AK, AK, Kx.)

 

In this auction, what else can you do to encourage slam with:

 

KQxx

xx

Qxxx

Jxx

 

In the pickup auction, I think it would go:

 

2C-2D

2S-3S

and explore from there.

I agree with you, Winston. I could easily have a hand with fair trumps here. It makes sense to bid 5♠ (if it is ever bid) as the type of picture bid you give. I considered the possibility that my PD was asking for good trumps, but I'm only missing KJ, so was more concerned about losing a couple tricks in the other 3 suits. In the end, I figured his bid was quant and reluctantly passed.

 

If he doesn't realize that it is standard in SAYC with 2♦ waiting for the raise from 2M to 3M to be GF and be slam invitational+, perhaps that explains his brash and confusing 5♠ bid. If he bids 3♠ rather than 5♠ I can bring out 0314, or Q clubs (2nd round control should be OK to show) or bid 3NT which could simply ask him to tell me more about his hand.

 

..neilkaz..

[pclayton]

One of my pet peeves in bidding is having the weak hand take control. 5♠ frequently wins the post mortem, but thats usually it.

 

Whats wrong with a simple 3♠? North tries 3N (serious or not) and South cues the A♣; which is a casual partnership should show a little extra. Slam is pretty easy after this start.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

3S instead of 5S is certainly better,

it is forcing, and it should also show

at least one cue.

 

You may or may not bid 3NT over,

3S, a risky bid with an unknown partner,

but even 4NT over 3S will do the job.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[blackshoe]

The usual "agreement" regarding strength of suit-oriented 2 club openers is "8-1/2 playing tricks". Many players these days think this means any 8-1/2 playing tricks. You decided 5 spades was quantitative. Do you have better than 8-1/2 playing tricks? Seems to me you do. Take the shot. :D

 

That said, I agree with others that, particularly with an unknown partner, 3 spades is a much better bid than 5 spades. And after 3 spades, I would blackwood, particularly given RKC is available.