reverses after a negative double

[ron]

Consider an auction that starts 1C-(1S)-Dbl-(P). For those who have partnership agreements about continuations in this situation, I ask the following questions:

 

As per your agreements,

 

1) Does opener's 2D rebid show extras? Is it forcing?

 

2) What does opener's 3D jump rebid show? (Also, what does opener's 3D bid mean for you in the analogous uncontested sequence 1C-1H-3D?)

 

3) What type of hand is opener indicating in the following sequence?

 

1C-(1S)-Dbl-(P)

2S-(P)-3C-(P)

3D

[Walddk]

1. Yes. It doesn't even show diamonds as I play it. The double shows hearts, not hearts *and* diamonds. I know that others promise both suits when they double.

 

2.1. Mini-splinter for hearts. 2.2. Mini-splinter for hearts.

 

3. Doesn't exist in my system.

 

Roland

[P_Marlowe]

1) No

2) Yes similar to the uncontested seq.

3) 3D is forcing, showing at least 5 clubs,

a good 3 card diamond suit and is

asking for a further description of

responders hand, assuming you

play, that a new suit on the level is forcing

3C shows a weak hand with a 6 card suit

 

But 3D is a rare bid.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[mikeh]

1. the reverse into 2♦ shows extras but is non-forcing, for me. It is not as strong as 1♣ (P) 1♥ (P) 2♦. While I am with Roland in that the double shows ♥ and not the reds, it is also a prepared bid, in the sense that it shows more than the (very low) minimum required for a 1♥ response without interference... either partner has a good hand (in which case, he will keep bidding) or, if he is weak, he will have long ♥ (he bids 2♥ now) or both reds (he passes) or ♣ support..he bids 3♣. With, for example, xxx KQxx xxx xxx, I would tend not to make a negative double but I would not have passed 1♣ had the opps been silent. With xx KQxx xxx xxxx, I would make the negative double because I can play in ♣....

 

2. I don't see the auctions as the least bit analogous :P For me the jump reverse over the negative double shows a strong 5-6 in the minors, forcing. As for the uncontested auction, in my better partnerships, this is a splinter in support of ♥, invitational or better... I use a jump to 4♦ as something else :D

 

3. As for the 3rd auction, I'll let you know if it ever comes up.. I have been able to avoid it for 30+ years and hope that my luck will hold. Any partner who inflicts it upon me had better have caught me in a good mood.

[awm]

In my methods:

 

(1) Doesn't show extras, not forcing. Doubler usually has diamonds, and if not should have either invitational values or the ability to rebid 2♥ or 3♣.

 

(2) After the double, natural and extra values. Without interference, invitational or better splinter (2♦ would show extras in this auction).

 

(3) Game forcing values without a spade stopper; suggesting diamonds as a place to play. Something like a (23)44 or 2245 hand with 18-19 hcp but weak spades is typical.

[SoTired]

1) 1C (1S) X (p) 2D/2H = no extras. treat as a raise of partner's 1-level response

2) 1C (1S) X (p) 3D/3H = natural, extras. How much extras is a matter of debatable. Some experts say 14-15 (less than jump raise but more than min), some say 17 (about jump raise or reverse strength)

3) 1C (1S) X p 2S p 3C p 3D = 2S establishes a game force, 3D is undefined. could be natural, could be diam q-bid. responder should bid as if natural.

[HeartA]

In my methods:

 

(1) Doesn't show extras, not forcing. Doubler usually has diamonds, and if not should have either invitational values or the ability to rebid 2♥ or 3♣.

 

(2) After the double, natural and extra values. Without interference, invitational or better splinter (2♦ would show extras in this auction).

 

(3) Game forcing values without a spade stopper; suggesting diamonds as a place to play. Something like a (23)44 or 2245 hand with 18-19 hcp but weak spades is typical.

I second all 3 ponts.

[Finch]

Surely it´s not really possible to answer these questions without defining what partner´s negative double shows? If partner has shown diamonds, then you are simply raising partner´s suit when you bid 2D or 3D.

 

For me, the double is effectively equivalent to a 1H response (although as mikeh slightly stronger, and may include some hands I would made a weak jump shift on), and does not show diamonds, so

 

1. 2D shows extra values and is forcing for 1 round (exactly as 1C 1H 2D uncontested)

2. 3D is the same as in an uncontested auction (I play a piece of kit where it shows 18/19 balanced with 4 hearts)

3. I would expect opener has a very strong hand with primary clubs (an Acol 2 in clubs if you like), no spade stop, with a good diamond holding such as AKx. However, if the partnership hadn´t discussed this in a great deal of detail opener might simply have a game forcing hand with 4 diamonds and 5 clubs, not sure whether 2D would have been forcing.

[benlessard]

I agree 100% with So Tired 2d shouldnt show extra here is why.

 

 

when its 1c--pass--1h opener can bid 1s or 1nt.

 

when its 1c---1s---X

 

With all the hand that you would have bid 1s or 1nt that dont have a spades stopper you are stuck to bid 1nt.

 

 

 

either you bid 1nt with or without out a stopper or allow 2d to be minimum.

 

 

IMHO bidding 1nt without a stopper and with a minimum hand is a much worse bid then bidding a 4 card suit at the 2 level.

 

 

2 3d is a natural jump shift

 

3 3d is a cue bid slammish. or looking for half a stopper for 3nt.

[helene_t]

This issue is part of the reason why you should open 1♦ with 44m. The you will never need to rebid 2♦ with less than reverse strength.

[benlessard]

opener could easily be

 

2245

 

3145

 

2146

 

1246

 

3235 with most of his point in diamond and hearts.

 

 

there is 3 option

 

either you allow rebidding 1nt without a stopper

 

or allow rebidding a 5 card club suit whatever the suit quality

 

or either 2d could show a minimum hand. (ill even bid it with a good 3 card)

 

im sure the 3rd option is best.

 

 

 

 

 

 

xx

qx

aqjx

kjxxx

 

 

if youre like to rebid suit with kjxxx then go ahead bid 2c but for me its an easy 2d bid.

 

 

PS im pretty sure the BY THE BOOK standard treatment is that reversed over neg double doenst show extra.

[helene_t]

Well, some would open 1♦ with 45 minors and a possible rebid problem if the hand was opened 1♣.

 

In the EBU Acol style, in which 1m denies a balanced hand with a four-card major, it makes sense to rebid 2♦ with 45 minors since repsonder would probably have supported clubs instead of showing hearts if he had clubs support. Then again, this is hardly an issue in a weak-1NT system.

 

But in standard American, the negative double does not suggest diamonds any more than it suggests clubs. So with 45 minors, just rebid your longer suit. Otherwise reponder will frequently have to take preference at the three-level.

[HeartA]

Well, some would open 1♦ with 45 minors and a possible rebid problem if the hand was opened 1♣.

 

In the EBU Acol style, in which 1m denies a balanced hand with a four-card major, it makes sense to rebid 2♦ with 45 minors since repsonder would probably have supported clubs instead of showing hearts if he had clubs support. Then again, this is hardly an issue in a weak-1NT system.

 

But in standard American, the negative double does not suggest diamonds any more than it suggests clubs. So with 45 minors, just rebid your longer suit. Otherwise reponder will frequently have to take preference at the three-level.

I disagree. What would you bid as responder with 2-4-5-2, 3-4-4-2 etc, after pd opens 1C and your rho overcalls 1S?

 

negative double only shows hearts, but not clear about other suits.

[helene_t]

What would you bid as responder with 2-4-5-2, 3-4-4-2 etc, after pd opens 1C and your rho overcalls 1S?

Double, of course. Expecting partner to rebid 2♣ (if we play Standard) or 2♦ (if we play Acol) if he has a minimum 45 minors. Both are acceptable contracts. What's the problem?

[HeartA]

When opener rebid 2D, he shows at least 5-4 minors. If responder does have support for clubs, it is safe to play 3C (if not, opponents would have a play in majors at 2 level).

[Double !]

I play the bidding on hand sample #1 as showing a reverse and as being forcing 1 round. Therefore, I might open a hand that's 4-5 in minors with 1 diamond as a prepared opener that will permit me to have a rebid. Suit qualities will be an important factor: I try to keep minor suit rebids as showing 6+ card suits as much as possible. I might be in the minority on this; the bidding dinosaur in me strikes again in terms of a prepared opening.

 

I would interpret the bidding on hand sample #2 as showing some sort of 5-6 with good suits.

 

Hand #3 could be one of several types of hands including a strong balanced or semibalanced GF hand. In one of my partnerships, the possibility of having a solid, running minor and some outside cards (that is too good for a jump-rebid of the suit) was included as possible hands that would bid 2S. I believe that 3 diamonds here doesn't necessarily shows 4+ diamonds although I believe that it should show at least a diamond stopper and give partner a chance to bid a 5+ card heart suit should partner have one. )I don't know how many will agree with me on this; there are some bids where I don't necessarily agree with the traditional or mainstream interpretation.) This is not an every-day bidding situation.

 

DHL

[keylime]

1) I treat 2D as NOT forcing. With extras pard can do other things. The reason is there are certain hands that Opener must take a preference on. I treat 1♣ (1♠) X as NOT necessarily promising hearts.

 

2) Jump rebid with me is extras, denying 3 hearts.

 

3) 2S is showing a very good playing hand. I'd treat 3D as pattern showing, a hand that has zero spade stop and is asking for input. Can be bid on a 3 card diamond fragment. I also treat it as forward-going.