Systems over 2NT

[awm]

A recent set of emails caused me to put this poll up. Suppose partner opens a strong 2NT. What do you think of assigning an artificial meaning to the 3NT call? Presumably hands that "just want to raise to 3NT" will go through a 3♠ "puppet to 3NT" or bid 3♣ puppet stayman followed by 3NT.

 

I'm interested in people's opinions. If anyone has suggestions for the best artificial meanings for 3NT feel free to post them here as well.

[SoTired]

Marshall Miles proposed a new puppet stayman in a recent ACBL Bulletin. In order that opener could rebid 3D with or without a 4-card major (thus hiding that info from defenders), an immediate 3N (and 4N and 5N) response is used when responder has 44 in majors.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

an art. response structure to an 2NT opener

makes certainly sense, if you can memorise

the seq. than this will be a great idea.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[paulg]

We used to play that 3NT was 'Baron' asking opener to bids 4-cards suit up the line. This was typically bid with slam-invitational balanced hands.

 

The 3♠ response was a puppet to 3NT, either to play or various hands with one or both minors.

 

We have now moved away from this. The problem was not remembering that 3NT was forcing, we never had this accident, but that it gave the opposition a free double of 3♠. In the end we decided this was probably losing us more than we were gaining.

 

We now play 3NT as to play and 3♠ as minor suit stayman when holding one or both minors.

 

Paul

[mikeh]

I have, in several partnerships, played 3N (response to 2N) as CONFI.

 

Opener shows controls in steps... 4♣ is 0-6, 4♦ 7 etc.

 

If responder now bids 4N, he is saying that the answer was disappointing and 4N is to play. And 4♦ over 4♣ asks for precise number of controls (note, that opener has to have SOME for 2N, so we don't use 4♥ = 0 etc)

 

Otherwise, a suit by responder is Baron.. announcing possession of at least 10 controls between the partnership and looking for a 4-4 fit up the line.

 

Responder needs a slam interest hand and is always balanced ... we have other ways of showing 4441 slam interest hands and all one and two suited slam tries.

 

It also shows a hand stronger than 3♠ puppet to 3N followed by 4N, which is the classic 2N 4N hand. In other words, it will be an opening hand, expecting to make slam if not off 3+ controls.

 

It seems to work ok...not as well as an old but very complex relay method I played, but not bad :P

[pclayton]

With Chris we play 3♠ is a puppet to 3N to start slam sequences or sign off.

 

2N - 3N shows a long minor suit and a weak hand. Opener puppets to 4♣. I suppose you could extend some useful sequences as well.

[1eyedjack]

My preferred methods are described here:

 

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...indpost&p=33200

 

They use 3N in an artificial capacity.

 

I voted for the last option. Not surprisingly I find few partners prepared to play this method :-(

[helene_t]

We play an artificial 2NT but after a 2NT rebid after 2!c or 2!d, 3NT shows 5!s4!h which is standard in The Netherlands. It's a good and logical system, not difficult to memorize. It does have the disadvantage that opps can double 3♣ for the lead.

[mr1303]

I play it with one of my regular F2F partners. When you remember it, everything works out very well. The problem originates when you have this sequence:

 

2NT 3NT

4C (etc) 4NT (oops)

 

Incidentally, is having 4NT here to play a legal convention?

[Gerben42]

More to the Dutch convention: Since so many play it and you check this with a pickup partner forgets are rarer than in an environment where this conv. is not so common. But if you forget it costs a beer!

[kgr]

We play an artificial 2NT but after a 2NT rebid after 2!c or 2!d, 3NT shows 5!s4!h which is standard in The Netherlands. It's a good and logical system, not difficult to memorize. It does have the disadvantage that opps can double 3♣ for the lead.

used to play this, but 3NT looks so natural/normal that we forgot to often. After a while if partner bids 3NT you are not even sure anymore if he forgot or not.

We don't play it anymore.

[neilkaz]

The methods posted by Whereagles two years ago look playable and not too complicated to me.

 

"What's your favourite scheme after a natural 2NT opening? Up to now, the best I've seen is the TRS idea:

 

2NT ...

 

3C = puppet stay

3H/S = transfer. Breaks by opener shows fit + good controls

3S = puppet to 3NT. To play 3NT or slammish with minor(s)

3NT = baron

4C/D = slam try in hearts/spades

4M = to play

 

After the puppet 3S, it goes

 

2NT 3S

3NT ...

 

4C = 5C+4D. Opener bids 4NT/5NT misfit min/max or 4D = fit 4M = club fit, control

4D = 4C+5D. Opener bids 4NT/5NT misfit min/max or 4H = club fit, 4S = diam fit

4H/S = slam try in C/D. Opener bids 4NT/5NT with min/max singleton or anything else control

4NT = 55 minor slam invite but NF

5C = 55 minor slam invite forcing "

 

(NK) However, I'm not sure sure that I want to be bidding 5NT with missfit max's since responder can always invite over 4NT with a max this may save room to allow 65's to be bid after 4N.

 

(NK) Also..in this method, after 2N-3S-3N-4m, does opener show 3 card support for a 5 card minor if he has a ruffing value and one of the top 3 honors in support ?

 

.. neilkaz ..

[Finch]

I continue to play 4/suit transfers after a 2NT opening (though not quite the same as after a 1NT opening)

 

3S is a raise to 3NT or a slam try with diamonds

3NT is a transfer to clubs

 

99% of the time opener bids step 1 over these and responder describes his hand e.g. 2NT 3NT 4C 4NT is a quantitative 4NT bid with 5 clubs to help opener evaluate his hand.

 

(responder can also choose to go through 3C to raise to 3NT, so has choice of which black suit to get doubled by LHO)

[mikeh]

I have an aversion to ordinary puppet, since it renders 5-4 or 4-5 major suit hands unbiddable.... but it can be modified to deal with this.

 

My current scheme:

 

3♣: modified puppet: 3♦ denies 4 card M or a 5 card ♥ suit, but may have 5♠, 3♦ asks about ♠. 3♣ 3N shows 5 ♥.

 

3♦ transfer but may be slam oriented (4441) with 3+ controls or both majors, 5-5 or better slam interest or both minors, 5-5 or better, slam interest

 

3♥ transfer

 

3♠ puppet to 3N.. to play or a single suit minor slam move with a good suit or a quantitative notrump raise (will bid 4N next) or a 31(45) or 13(45) slam interest.

 

3N is CONFI... asks for controls, followed by baron

 

4♣ gerber

 

texas transfers

 

4♠ slam invite in ♣ with a poor suit

 

4N slam interest in ♦ with a poor suit

 

2N opening bids have been described by some as 'slam killers'... which, I guess, is why these methods focus so much on slam hands... catering to just about every conceivable hand pattern for responder.

 

There are developments after most of these bids, and I have not gone into detail... pm me if you want the full scheme... it is not for the casual partnership :)

[bearmum]

A recent set of emails caused me to put this poll up. Suppose partner opens a strong 2NT. What do you think of assigning an artificial meaning to the 3NT call? Presumably hands that "just want to raise to 3NT" will go through a 3♠ "puppet to 3NT" or bid 3♣ puppet stayman followed by 3NT.

 

I'm interested in people's opinions. If anyone has suggestions for the best artificial meanings for 3NT feel free to post them here as well.

we play 2NT as 22-23 balanced -- (Precision) so our responses DO include an "artificial" meaning to the immediatr 3NT response -- as follows

Over 2NT :-

3C is Stayman and after response 3NT to PLAY

3♦ transfer to ♥ and then same as responses over 1NT

3♥ transfer to ♠ as above

3♠ transfer to 3NT (Showing at least 5/5 in touching suits slam going B) if fit found :blink: )

3NT transfer to 4♣ (Showing at least 5/5 in NON touching suits slam going of fit is found :blink: )

 

over the transfers of 3♠ and 3NT responders rebid identifies his 2 suits -- and opener can ALWAYS sign off in 4NT :blink:

[joker_gib]

I play it in some partnerships.

 

It's 5♠ + 4♥

 

Alain

[starfruit]

have, in several partnerships, played 3N (response to 2N) as CONFI.

 

Opener shows controls in steps... 4♣ is 0-6, 4♦ 7 etc.

 

If responder now bids 4N, he is saying that the answer was disappointing and 4N is to play. And 4♦ over 4♣ asks for precise number of controls (note, that opener has to have SOME for 2N, so we don't use 4♥ = 0 etc)

 

Otherwise, a suit by responder is Baron.. announcing possession of at least 10 controls between the partnership and looking for a 4-4 fit up the line.

 

Responder needs a slam interest hand and is always balanced ... we have other ways of showing 4441 slam interest hands and all one and two suited slam tries.

 

It also shows a hand stronger than 3♠ puppet to 3N followed by 4N, which is the classic 2N 4N hand. In other words, it will be an opening hand, expecting to make slam if not off 3+ controls.

 

It seems to work ok...not as well as an old but very complex relay method I played, but not bad 

 

I was playing this method like 1 year ago but something about the method just doesn't seem to make sense.

Why not play 3NT as natural while 3♠ as the CONFI bid? I always thought that weaker bids should take more space so that stronger bids have more space to investigate.

[hrothgar]

I was playing this method like 1 year ago but something about the method just doesn't seem to make sense.

 

Why not play 3NT as natural while 3♠ as the CONFI bid? I always thought that weaker bids should take more space so that stronger bids have more space to investigate.

The CONFI bid requests that opener show his hand strength using steps. Accordingly, you can't really predict what this response will be. Sometimes you'll hear a 4♦, sometimes 4♠...

 

In contrast, the 3♠ bid is a puppet to 3N. Because opener will always bid 3N, the auction is very predictable. In turn, this lets responder multiplex multiple different hand types into the 3♠ response. Responder will bid 3♠ with hands that want to play 3N, however, he'll also bid 3N with two suited hands with both minors and (potentially) hands that want to drop dead in 4m...

[jmc]

Awm, what method were you considering? A partner of mine has recently suggested an artificial 3NT and so far it seems artificially complex to me.

 

jmc

[Gerben42]

2NT - ?

 

3♣ Puppet

3♦ Xfer

3♥ Xfer

3♠ To play 3NT or minor-oriented slam hands

3NT 5♠ 4♥

4♣ Both majors

4♦ Xfer

4♥ Xfer

4♠ Both minors

4NT Quanti

[Guest Jlall]

I'm not ready for this yet :) You do gain a lot of sequences, but the combination of giving them a lead directing X or pass inference every single time I want to bid 3N makes me unhappy.

[jdonn]

I made up a puppet stayman about 6 years ago (that was similar to versions which had already been independently invented, though I didn't know at the time) which allows for responder to show both his 'smolen shapes' in the stayman bid while always having opener declare. The advantages are all 5-4 and 6-4 and 5-5 combinations can be shown by responder with the fit always being found, giving you more bids on the transfer auctions (2NT 3♦ 3♥ 3♠ and 2NT 3♥ 3♠ 4♥ can be used for other things) and that opener will declare 100% of the time. Disadvantages are complexity, giving them more artificial bids to double or not, and revealing (just a little more than most people) declarer's hand. I don't usually play puppet stayman, but when I do it's clear to me that this one is very good.

 

Immediate responses to 3♣:

3♦ = either no 4+ majors, or 4 spades

3♥ = 4 hearts

3♠ = 5 spades

3NT = 5 hearts

 

Over 3♦:

3♥ = describe your spade length

3♠ = 4-5 in the majors

3NT = to play

 

Over 3♥:

3♠ = 3 or 4 spades

3NT = 2 spades

 

Over 3♠:

3NT = passable (responder has 4 spades)

4♥ = transfer to 4♠ (responder has 5 spades, theoretically should be 5-4 in the majors)

 

There are more followups to all the bids, including some things allocated on 4 level over 3♣ 3♦ to show 5-5 majors and ways to show one or both minor suits after bidding stayman, but this is the general structure.

 

This negates 2NT 3NT having to be 5-4 in the majors as in some structures people have put forth. You could use it as a relay for even more minor suit hands, but I think for practical reasons I would have 2NT 3NT just be to play, and 3♠ relay to 3NT for whatever minor suit devices but with 3NT never to be passed.

 

Later note: Something like MikeH suggests, which is essentially this but with the ways to show 4 and 5 spades reversed, seems to me to be equivalent to this. Just off my head I think my way would make a 3♦ rebid more frequent, but would allow responder to sign off more often after the 3♦ bid instead of going through another ask, so I have no idea which is better. Probably there is little to choose between them.

[awm]

Awm, what method were you considering? A partner of mine has recently suggested an artificial 3NT and so far it seems artificially complex to me.

 

jmc

I wasn't considering anything in particular. It's been a while, but I think I put up this thread in response to an email conversation where it was commented that 2NT-3NT artificial was very popular at the expert level.

 

For quite some time I played a method where 2NT-3NT was a 4441 slam try short in a minor. My general experience with these sorts of methods was:

 

(1) Giving the opponents a lead directional double of spades on the way to a normal 3NT (assuming signoff hands went via 3♠) was rather costly. The alternative of having signoff hands go via 3♣ didn't seem much better (combination of the less-frequently-useful double of 3♣ and the information to the defense about opener's shape).

 

(2) The forgets of 2NT-3NT tended to be very costly, and since the "3NT signoff" hand is much more frequent than any reasonable artificial use of 3NT, it does not take a very substantial "forget probability" before the forgets outweigh the value of the convention.

 

(3) I do not see very many top players using 2NT-3NT artificial from my experiences in the US nationals. Of course at my age this experience is limited (and 2NT openings are infrequent) so I could be wrong about this.

 

Currently I don't play 2NT-3NT artificial any more in any partnerships.