Messy doubling

[richard_]

[hv=d=w&v=e&n=s106h32d1084c987542&w=s82h1054dkj3cakqj3&e=skqj54hqj96d752c6&s=sa973hak87daq96c10]399|300|Scoring: IMP

1♣ pass 1♠ Dbl

pass pass Rdbl 2♦

dbl pass pass pass

[/hv]

 

Looking at the traveller for the hand, everyone is in a different contract and lots of different numbers of tricks being made. Nightmare hand?

 

Is it even clear if south's double was for takeout or penalties, even if it is takeout what could north bid anyway, having 0 points and a long suit in a suit the opponent has opened?

[pclayton]

Ugly hand, but I wouldn't pass with N after the 1st double. Assuming double is takeout, I'd bid 2♦ and hope for the best.

 

If the vulnerability was right (or rather wrong - red on white) a pass of 1♠ has a little appeal, since you are giving up -160 + -100 a trick. -460 looks like a typical result against -500 or -800 (or worse) your way.

 

Once the blue card comes down, South can't bid in front of his partner. Its conceivable that North has a real trap pass of 1♠. Its up to North to pull, but if North made a penalty pass on a yarb, theres a fair chance South plays his pard for a real spade suit and bids 2♠.

 

At least it gives you something to laugh about in the bar later. :wacko:

 

By the way, it looks like you can scramble quite a few tricks in diamonds after a club lead and a spade shift; 1. A♣, 2. ♠ (1), 3-4-5 - AK♥-ruff (4), 6. ♣ ruffed (5), 7. ♥....

 

If LHO pitches, ruff (6), 8. club ruff (7) and you'll get the A♦ for 8.

 

If LHO ruffs high, pitch a spade, and eventually make another ruff in dummy. I think LHO eventually gets endplayed in trump and you'll make 9 tricks.

 

So 2♦ is a great spot!

[Gerben42]

South's Dbl is for takeout. Then North should choose his best red suit, ♦. Not sure what EW are doing but doubling 2♦ is very speculative. I'd probably end up in 2♠ or so.

[Finch]

Just to go back a bit, I´d have opened a strong NT on the West cards.

I´d have started to drive to game on the East cards in whatever is my systemic manner.

If South chose to get involved EW would get a large penalty. If not, I´ll probably go one off in 3NT EW when both black suits fall over.

[mikeh]

The double by S is takeout.... I doubt that there is a single competent player still alive who plays this any other way.

 

So North can and should bid.... I'm torn between 1N, 2♦ and 2♣.

 

IN would be bid in the hope that I got doubled and now ran to 2♣. I wouldn't choose the bid, since partner may (will) do the wrong thing far too often

 

2♦ is defensible on the grounds that partner asked me to bid a red suit, and I prefer ♦ to ♥

 

My actual choice would be 2♣, with a good player opposite: this should be natural on the auction... I did not make an overcall, I did not cue 2♠ and I did not bid any number of NT.

 

I saw that pclayton said S ought not to bid ahead of N on the redouble because N may have a penalty pass of 1♠. I disagree strongly with this statement.

 

S made a TAKEOUT double of 1♠... his holding A9xx is NOT what North will play South to have, and there is no hand with which North can be making a penalty pass when: 1) he could not bid 1♠ over 1♣, 2) West would pass 1♠ (with a marked void) or 3) south could have A9xx.

 

East made a major error in redoubling, if not for the bizarre fact that he was going down :rolleyes:

 

He should have thought as follows: partner has a limited hand.. he passed the double so lacks a big ♠ fit, a big hand or a long suit of his own. Especially in a strong NT system, east knows that game is remote, and the double warns him off trying to find 4-4 ♥ fit. He should take what he expects to be a good score.

 

Of course, he is heading for disaster after AK and a 3rd ♥, back to S's ♦A and a 4th ♥ ruffed with the 10... and S with 2 trump tricks still to come :wacko:

[pclayton]

I wouldn't overcall on KQ-5th of spades and out and would make a penalty pass of 1♠ on KQxxx, xx, xx, xxxx.

 

Is West supposed to find a call over 1♠x'd on: void, Qxxx, Axxx, KQxxx? I wouldn't. Pass doesn't imply a hint of spade tolerance.

 

Yet I don't see how any of the above relate to South bidding in front of North? If North makes a penalty pass of 1♠ x'd, South should be pleased and not run. Obviously East intends xx as SOS on Jxxx, and perhaps EW aren't on the same page.

 

I don't get too dogmatic about these discussions. I haven't had a lot of experience in 1 level xx'd contracts, but I don't think theres a lot worthwhile to be determined here. :wacko:

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

South dbl is for takeout and shows

simply 4-4 in the red suits, it may also

be weaker than in direct seat, especially

being green vs. red.

 

What should Nort do?

No idea, I have no clue, what I would do

at the table, Pass, 2D, (not 1NT, that should

show some values).

 

If I pass, I accept some overtricks for E/W,

if they redbl, I bid 2C (natural).

I am afraid, I would not understand a direct 2C

as natural.

 

The 2D after the XX is just ..., South should simply

pass and await developement.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[david_c]

The double is takeout, and North must take it out.

 

I like 2♣. This is natural. The principle is that all continuations after this double are the same as after a double of a 1♠ opening (though the suit lengths required may be different).

 

But if not discussed, that is a little risky. Fortunately, 2♦ is a perfectly good alternative. Unless South has an absolute monster of a hand, his double guarantees 4-4 in the unbid suits, and will very often be 4-5. So North is assured of a reasonable fit there. And even if N/S are in trouble, it is not particularly easy for the opponents to double a 2♦ contract - as long as you bid it immediately.

[Finch]

I saw that pclayton said S ought not to bid ahead of N on the redouble because N may have a penalty pass of 1♠. I disagree strongly with this statement.

 

S made a TAKEOUT double of 1♠... his holding A9xx is NOT what North will play South to have, and there is no hand with which North can be making a penalty pass when: 1) he could not bid 1♠ over 1♣, 2) West would pass 1♠ (with a marked void) or 3) south could have A9xx.

This raises an interesting side point.

LHO opens 1C

Partner passes

RHO bids 1S

You make a take-out double of 1S on a 4441 distribution.

 

LHO passes

Partner passes

RHO redoubles, supposedly natural.

 

What is going on?

 

All you know is that at least one person at the table is either a novice or has mis-sorted their hand or has mis-read/mis-seen the auction, or someone has the cards from a different board.

 

Seeing all four hands we know that partner's pass of the double was the action of, erm, a novice. But what would you assume if you were playing with your regular partner?

 

Well, goodness knows. But we do know that RHO's redouble gives partner another chance. In fact, when the redouble comes round to partner he might have a bit of a double-take, but it will cause him to have another look at his hand and the auction. Maybe he did have a good 1S overcall but mis-clicked/passed by accident and really does have a pass. Maybe he has a strong 4144 and thought he try out a penalty pass when spades weren't raised. Who knows?

 

So playing with a partner I trust, I would indeed pass the redouble.

[Walddk]

So North can and should bid.... I'm torn between 1N, 2♦ and 2♣.

You must be joking Mike. 1NT!? That would be constructive. How else can you disclose that LHO responded on zero, or RHO on 8? NT responses* after a take-out double should show values whereas a suit could be a bust.

 

* Not a 2NT response to a second seat double of a pre-empt.

 

Roland