Help me win a bet

[ochinko]

In the SAYC realm, silent opps, new partner, not many agreements, is this a possible or an impossible bidding?

 

1♣ - 1♥ - 3NT

[mikeh]

In standard bidding theory this shows something like Ax x AJx AKQxxxx

 

in essence: a solid, long ♣ suit, expecting to take 9 tricks if they don't run your suit first... ie playing you for 5th round control, or better, of ♥. You might fudge with KQx x Ax AKQxxxx etc... where you actually need a little extra help from dummy or the opps on lead... but this is the general hand type.

 

I have seen players rebid 3N on balanced 19 counts.... shudder.... if the hand is good enough to bid that way, upgrade it to a 2N opener.. otherwise jump to 2N over 1♥... which is not a sign of weakness :P

[Walddk]

It's standard to rebid 3NT with a solid minor and quick tricks outside responder's major, and it denies a fit.

 

Ax

x

Axx

AKQxxxx

 

is the ideal hand.

 

Roland

[Free]

3NT rebid is not 19hcp (like some think), it's a solid minor and maximum hand, without a ♥ fit. So yes, it's a possible bidding.

[P_Marlowe]

Yes, it is.

 

The standard meaning was given.

 

An alternative meaning, would be a

splinter bid, certainly not part of SAYC,

altough even the standard meaning is

not SAYC.

3S shows a unspecifiv void, 3NT would be

a sapde splinter.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: What ever it means, it should show a very well

defined hand type.

[Walddk]

3S shows a unspecifiv void, 3NT would be

a sapde splinter.

I have never heard about this interpretation. Are you sure you don't confuse it with a *response* to 1♥?

 

1♥ - 3♠/3NT

 

This sequence is indeed often played as an unspecified singleton (3♠) and a spade singleton or void (3NT).

 

Roland

[Winstonm]

Don't know who wins the bet, but I'm with all the rest that 3N denies a fit and shows a long, solid minor with good outside controls.

[neilkaz]

3NT shows a solid minor with good outside controls and may be gambling just a bit on making it. It is normally better to jump to 3NT with hands that are going to bid it almost certainly later anyhow, than to give help the opps pinpoint a lead by making another call first.

 

.. neilkaz ..

[SoTired]

playing Kokish... the 1m, then 3N hand falls between the 3N opener and 2C, then 3N. 1m, then 3N is about 7.5 to 8 tricks.

[HeartA]

It's standard to rebid 3NT with a solid minor and quick tricks outside responder's major, and it denies a fit.

 

Ax

x

Axx

AKQxxxx

 

is the ideal hand.

 

Roland

Depending on status of the match, my 3N rebid could be weaker, such as Ax, x, Qxx, AKQxxxx, expecting pd to have one trick.

[the hog]

As stated, 3N should show a solid m and an outside trick or 2, not necessarily Aces. What was the bet?

[Flame]

In the SAYC realm, silent opps, new partner, not many agreements, is this a possible or an impossible bidding?

 

1♣ - 1♥ - 3NT

I general an opening bid could have a game opposite a 1H response therefore 3NT is definetly possible the only question is what it mean and you have heard the std meaning. I'll give a more extreme bid to explain what i mean. 1NT- 5♥, is this a possible bid in sayc ? yes slam is possilbe so it must be a possible bid although this doesnt mean i know what i mean.

[Finch]

3NT rebid is not 19hcp (like some think), it's a solid minor and maximum hand, without a ♥ fit. So yes, it's a possible bidding.

In stone-age basic weak NT Acol (not SAYC) a 1NT opening is 12-14, a 1NT rebid 15-16, a 2NT rebid 17-18 and a 3NT rebid 19. Most keen players have changed to the rather more sane 12-14/15-17/18-19 and uses 3NT as described here, but you will still find plenty of club players (and old textbooks) describing the balanced 19-count meaning.

[whereagles]

I have it defined as solid suit + 1 side trick (A or K) in my pet system. With 2 side tricks we open a strong two (via a polish-style 1♣).

[P_Marlowe]

3S shows a unspecifiv void, 3NT would be

a sapde splinter.

I have never heard about this interpretation. Are you sure you don't confuse it with a *response* to 1♥?

 

1♥ - 3♠/3NT

 

This sequence is indeed often played as an unspecified singleton (3♠) and a spade singleton or void (3NT).

 

Roland

Hi Roland,

 

no, but I agree, your given seq. has something to do

with the schema.

Ron Klinger sugessted to use the same splinter

raises as opener, when partner reponds with 1M

to a minor opening.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[SoTired]

I play 2-tiered splinters. 3oM is a 10-12hcp anonymous splinter, whereas direct double-jump-shift is a 13-15 hcp actual splinter. There is one ambiguity. 1H 3S = 10-12 anon splinter, 1H 3N = 13-15 spade splinter.

[ritong]

hi there:-)

 

my five cents for that one:

1m pass 1M pass 3NT represents a flat & fitted hand, with which opener intended to rebid 2NT, so 18/19 balanced.

most probably a huge majority of pairs have a way to show flat fit, although i like this solution because it allows to stay in 3NT with two balanced hands, and it leaves room for responder to launch control checking at the four level if he wants to.

it looks like space consuming proceed, but it establishes fit and defines openers structure & strength with maximum speed.

bad side is it makes it more difficult to find a better lateral fit, and concerning the minor strong one suiter, frenchies play a constraining 2♣/2♦ strong opening arsenal which deals with this handtype.

to answer initial post, i do not recommend to use that with a new partner:p

[Dwingo]

One partner insisted that we play 1m pass 1M pass 3NT as a regular rebid of 2NT 18-19 hand but with 3 card Major support and 3 aces.

 

It helped us bid some thin slams on control rich hands and we had reasonable success whenever we held that combination.

[helene_t]

One partner insisted that we play 1m pass 1M pass 3NT as a regular rebid of 2NT 18-19 hand but with 3 card Major support and 3 aces.

 

It helped us bid some thin slams on control rich hands and we had reasonable success whenever we held that combination.

But if you rebid 2NT, can't you describe uch a hand in the follow-up? I see two disadvantages of your approach:

- If responder has only 4 of his major but some slam interest if there is a minor suit fit, he doesn't know what to do. He might be better placed after a space-saving 2NT (or maybe even better: 2♦ as Ben (I think) plays it).

- You help the defense by describing declarer's (if responder pass 3NT) hand so accurately.

 

As for the question of the thread: Not sure if the expert meaning of 3NT is SAYC. SAYC is a vanilla bidding system. I think it depends more on partner's knowledge of bidding theory than on the system you play.

[DWM]

I play 1x - 1y -

 

2NT as 18-19 bal with 3 card support for P

3NT as 18-19 bal without 3 card support for P.

 

Would shave off a point or two for 3NT with a long running minor.

[kenberg]

In the SAYC realm, silent opps, new partner, not many agreements, is this a possible or an impossible bidding?

 

1♣ - 1♥ - 3NT

The Q asks abouy SAYC land so I tried looking at: http://web2.acbl.org/documentlibrary/play/...gle%20pages.pdf

 

Nada.

 

Then I tried the Full Disclosure card for SAYC, provided by BBO. It says: 6+ clubs and 1 to 3 hearts.

 

To the extent the question is "What should be expected in a pick-up partnership that has agreed to play SAYC", this would appear to be the answer. It also seems to me to be the answer in any pick-up partnership that has not discussed the auction.

[ochinko]

Thanks everyone for your input.

 

Obviously I didn't phrase the bet terms properly because it turns out that the 3NT bid wasn't impossible after all. The thing is that partner had somewhat balanced 19 points, and I tried to explain how the NT ladder goes.

[kenberg]

Since this was a bet with perhaps large sums of money involved, I should slightly correct my response. The BBO card is not strictly a SAYC card but rather the BBO basic card, which is advertised as "based on SAYC". BBO basic deviates some from SAYC, for example 1m-2N is played as invitational in BBO basic, but as forcing in SAYC. So I guess SAYC itself has to be regarded as silent on the issue. Still, I would expect a club suit on the auction. With discussion, there could be other meanings. But the default is a club suit and an expectation of nine tricks. This appears though to be a matter of "common knowledge" rather than "SAYC".

 

Incidentally, I prefer "club suit with an expectation of nine tricks" to "solid clubs". This preference appears to match with the BBO basic card, which describes the bid as 6+ clubs (the commonsense implication of expecting nine tricks is unmentioned) rather than solid clubs.

 

Ken

[benlessard]

1m---1 X---3nt

 

show a long solid minor with a minimum hand with the desire to be declarer something like

 

 

Kx

xx

Qx

AKQxxxx

 

 

uIt's standard to rebid 3NT with a solid minor and quick tricks outside responder's major, and it denies a fit.

 

Ax

x

Axx

AKQxxxx

 

is the ideal hand.

 

Roland

ndefined

 

 

 

with a hand as good as this make a jump shift.

 

 

The idea of jumping direct to game is to tell slam is unlikely and you want to make it harder for defense with good hand take your time.

[Finch]

uIt's standard to rebid 3NT with a solid minor and quick tricks outside responder's major, and it denies a fit.

 

Ax

x

Axx

AKQxxxx

 

is the ideal hand.

 

Roland

ndefined

 

with a hand as good as this make a jump shift.

 

The idea of jumping direct to game is to tell slam is unlikely and you want to make it harder for defense with good hand take your time.

I disagree. A jump to 3NT should certainly specific, because it takes up a lot of room. But there's no reason to play it as saying 'slam is unlikely': just because it is such a descriptive bid, it can make slam bidding easier, not harder.

 

Making a jump shift on a 2137 (or rather I suspect you mean reversing into 2D) doesn't make slam bidding easier because you haven't described your hand.