flytoox Posted November 22, 2003 Report Share Posted November 22, 2003 VUL: BOTH DEALER: NORTH You hold: S:KQJT H:KTX D:KQT9 C:XX Auction went: W N E S 1H P 1S 2D P ? How do you tell pd you have 3 card h, and good 4 card d for him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted November 22, 2003 Report Share Posted November 22, 2003 As I play 2N here as GF, this is what I would bid. Pd can now describe her hand - bid out the shape with 3C/S or bid 3N with 5422. Over 3N I bid a simple 4H. Over 3C I bid 3H and over 3S I bid 4D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 3C 4th suit FG. Partner bids, and if he doesn't have a Club-control, you end up in 4H... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Here is the problem... in a nutshell If you bid 3C (4th suit forcing) and partner bids 3NT, where do you go now? 4H's? The bidding might end there, but htis is a slam try. Partner may take control with blackwood or simply blast to 6H. Not bad you say, what if partner is... as a 3 NT bid and then slam bid might suggest... S-xxH-AQJTxD-AJ9xC-AX On a club lead, you are down one, when 6 Diamonds rolls home. But if you support diamonds after 3C, it will be difficult to get to 4H when partner has a junky... S-xH-AJxxxD-AJxxC-QJT Maybe the fault lies earlier in your bidding system. I wonder if a BETTER way to bid these hands could be constructed... Now, I know with hand one you could end up in 6D after 3c.. one possible way... 6D is not hard to reach if you use modern bidding tools I guess... ETM vicoties 2C response to a major will see you home... as would some nice relay systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted November 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Here is the problem... in a nutshell If you bid 3C (4th suit forcing) and partner bids 3NT, where do you go now? 4H's? The bidding might end there, but htis is a slam try. Partner may take control with blackwood or simply blast to 6H. Not bad you say, what if partner is... as a 3 NT bid and then slam bid might suggest... S-xxH-AQJTxD-AJ9xC-AX On a club lead, you are down one, when 6 Diamonds rolls home. But if you support diamonds after 3C, it will be difficult to get to 4H when partner has a junky... S-xH-AJxxxD-AJxxC-QJT Maybe the fault lies earlier in your bidding system. I wonder if a BETTER way to bid these hands could be constructed... Now, I know with hand one you could end up in 6D after 3c.. one possible way... 6D is not hard to reach if you use modern bidding tools I guess... ETM vicoties 2C response to a major will see you home... as would some nice relay systems. Ben, I was thinkking about this hand last night. If I bid 3c, you bid 3N, then i remove to 4H. It should imply good D support and 3card H spt. Why? Becasue your 1H then 2D shows at least 54 so with 3card H spt I should bid 4H rightaway. So 3c then 4H shold show sth else, which must be D spt plus H spt. Is it logical? I am wondering.. I really hope there is a simple and natural way to reach 6D starting with 1H-1S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 VUL: BOTH DEALER: NORTH You hold: S:KQJT H:KTX D:KQT9 C:XX Auction went: W N E S 1H P 1S 2D P ? How do you tell pd you have 3 card h, and good 4 card d for him? nobody mentioned it (probably with good reason), but why not 2D as first response? sets gf immediately, shows a (supposed) 5 card suit... pard prob bids 3D, then comes 3H.. yeah i know, spades lost but so what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted November 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 VUL: BOTH DEALER: NORTH You hold: S:KQJT H:KTX D:KQT9 C:XX Auction went: W N E S 1H P 1S 2D P ? How do you tell pd you have 3 card h, and good 4 card d for him? nobody mentioned it (probably with good reason), but why not 2D as first response? sets gf immediately, shows a (supposed) 5 card suit... pard prob bids 3D, then comes 3H.. yeah i know, spades lost but so what? The problem is that it violates the natural principle. If you responded with 2D, then you may lose S fit if pd has 4s+5h. After 2d, Pd is more likely to rebid 2H(weak, catch all bid), then you will bid 2s. Now you show pd you have 5 card d suit and 4card s suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 VUL: BOTH DEALER: NORTH You hold: S:KQJT H:KTX D:KQT9 C:XX Auction went: W N E S 1H P 1S 2D P ? How do you tell pd you have 3 card h, and good 4 card d for him? I don't think you can tell partner everything on this hand playing a basic system. However, what is the difference between 4D here, and 3C (fsf) followed by 4D? One could, I suppose, use the immediate 4D as showing support for both partner's suits, and 3C followed by 4D as showing just diamonds. What do the bidding theorists think? Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 The problem is that it violates the natural principle. If you responded with 2D, then you may lose S fit if pd has 4s+5h. After 2d, Pd is more likely to rebid 2H(weak, catch all bid), then you will bid 2s. Now you show pd you have 5 card d suit and 4card s suit. i understand that, fly, that was the point.. bid 2D first, then follow with spades.. pard will (rightly) think i have 5 diamonds and 4 spades.. yep, i lied to him this hand, but imo it was a 'lesser of evils' bid.. if at anytime he bids 3nt, i'm pulling to 4H.. in the meantime, gf has been established and my 2 suits (for what they're worth) have been shown what else is there? 1H/p/1S/p/2D/p/3H? strongly invitational, says nothing of good double fit.. 4H? fine, but slam isn't unlikely... 3C? just invites 3NT if pard has club stopper, else 3D or 3H (which might be ok).. but it seems in all of these that pard won't envision slam, as he might following a responsive reverse nothing's perfect on this hand, i think 2D isn't as bad as it seems at first (since in my mind hearts are trumps anyway - remember, i know nothing of pard's diamonds) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted November 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 The problem is that it violates the natural principle. If you responded with 2D, then you may lose S fit if pd has 4s+5h. After 2d, Pd is more likely to rebid 2H(weak, catch all bid), then you will bid 2s. Now you show pd you have 5 card d suit and 4card s suit. i understand that, fly, that was the point.. bid 2D first, then follow with spades.. pard will (rightly) think i have 5 diamonds and 4 spades.. yep, i lied to him this hand, but imo it was a 'lesser of evils' bid.. if at anytime he bids 3nt, i'm pulling to 4H.. in the meantime, gf has been established and my 2 suits (for what they're worth) have been shown what else is there? 1H/p/1S/p/2D/p/3H? strongly invitational, says nothing of good double fit.. 4H? fine, but slam isn't unlikely... 3C? just invites 3NT if pard has club stopper, else 3D or 3H (which might be ok).. but it seems in all of these that pard won't envision slam, as he might following a responsive reverse nothing's perfect on this hand, i think 2D isn't as bad as it seems at first (since in my mind hearts are trumps anyway - remember, i know nothing of pard's diamonds) After retrospect, i think 2d does have its merit. It established gf, so everything is under control. The only problem is, as we all noticed, it showed longer d than s. Perhaps, after all, 2d is best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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