flytoox Posted November 22, 2003 Report Share Posted November 22, 2003 Pd, as the dealer, opened 1H, you hold: S: A H: AKJXX D: QXXXX C: XX What do you bid? Rank the following three bid: a) 3S(splinter) :) 2d(two over one), planning to raise pd later c) Jacoby 2N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted November 22, 2003 Report Share Posted November 22, 2003 2D - the suit is terrible 0. Splinter - the singleton is an ace, and the hand is too strong (though I know that many play splinters as unlimited) - 4 Jacoby 2NT - by default - 9. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted November 22, 2003 Report Share Posted November 22, 2003 I think the best move on this is 2D. The slam potential of the hand depends on pd's D holding and whether he has a C control. Bidding 2D is more likely to elicit sensible information, and does set up a GF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 2D, the suit is weak, but your Hearts are strong, so partner has HCPs somewhere else. Sets up GF, and can find slam easier than after Jacoby 2NT imo. splinter I would never do, because it's the ace... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 I have very strong views about this hand... Let's start with possible 3S splinter... Nope, nowway, no how. I would not even concider 3SPADES. The only real choices are between 2NT and 2D. If you play typical jacoby 2NT, I would choose 2D 100% of the time, if you play bergen's new jacoby or some other versions of 2NT that allows either patner to take control, I might bid 2NT, but I think I would STILL bid 2Diamonds. You got 5Diamond, game forcing values. Tell partner about that, and when you support hearts later, you will be all set for a simple auction. Simple is nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 I have very strong views about this hand... Let's start with possible 3S splinter... Nope, nowway, no how. I would not even concider 3SPADES. The only real choices are between 2NT and 2D. If you play typical jacoby 2NT, I would choose 2D 100% of the time, if you play bergen's new jacoby or some other versions of 2NT that allows either patner to take control, I might bid 2NT, but I think I would STILL bid 2Diamonds. You got 5Diamond, game forcing values. Tell partner about that, and when you support hearts later, you will be all set for a simple auction. Simple is nice. my first thought was 1S, since somebody has them and since it is forcing... but i don't think i'd want partner to think i'm merely showing a pref for hearts later, especially until a gf has been established... i think 2D is best, as someone said slam is likely if pard has D fit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted November 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Simple is nice. Cannot agree more, ben. But relay will never be simple:) I am happy to take 2D here. After 2D, how to show pd you have terrific H for him? After 2D, pd is likely to bid 2N (given your strong h holding, he is unlikely to rebid 2H). If pd can raise D, excellent, everything is under control. But after pd's likely 2N, is 3H the right bid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Simple is nice. Cannot agree more, ben. But relay will never be simple:) I am happy to take 2D here. After 2D, how to show pd you have terrific H for him? After 2D, pd is likely to bid 2N (given your strong h holding, he is unlikely to rebid 2H). If pd can raise D, excellent, everything is under control. But after pd's likely 2N, is 3H the right bid? These comments will apply to 2/1 game force, since this is a BBO forum, I will assume using BBO Advacned (with last train, serious 3NT) 1H 2D (2D=5D+ game force)2N 3JH (3H= 5D+ and 3H+ still game force)? A) 4D: If your partner bids 4D he has no first or second round club control... or second round club control given your holding and the auction to date, that doesn't seem possilbe. But hf he doesn't have club control you dont either. :) 3S:Partner has spade king, so there is a place for one club loser... you bid 3NT (serious 3NT) to see if partner can cue-bid a club control AND convey your slam interest. If you partner DOESN't bid 4C, you will give up at 4H. So assume he bids 4C. Now you bid 4H or 4D. 4D here is last train, and with both black suit shown under control, 4D implies no diamond control or the need for something else. I think after 2NT your partner has 2D at most, but 4D is strongly slam oriented. If your partner bids 4H I would bid 5D lackwood with this hand. C) 3NTThis is the best response you could here. PArtner denies the Spade King, but shows slam interest. Clearly he is looking at diamond honors, club honors, here. You could problaby bid 6H without further investigations. But I would bid 4D as last train, denying a club honor and says nothing about diamond honor, but promises spades under control. Probably your partner can use blackwood himself now. d) 4CNo quite as good for you as 3NT. Partner still lacks the spade king, and has a club control, but he is expressing poor slam interest (probably because his heart suit looks like your diamond suit). Once again the 4D last tain bid shows the spade control and expresses slam interest. I suspect your partner might now bid 4H and you will have to decide if you will bid 5D lackwood or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Ben, you're talking about spade king. WHY does your partner need SK to make a slam possible?? Imo, it's better he has nothing in Spades, and his HCPs in D and C. If he has 14 HCP with AK and AK of D and C, you make 7H... but with Axx of D, AK of C and SK, you might go down in 6H (2 possible D losers). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Ben, you're talking about spade king. WHY does your partner need SK to make a slam possible?? I am not sure if you understood my post. Fly asked how do you show your great heart support IF your partner bids 2NT over 2D;s. If partner bids 2NT, the right reply with this hand is 3H. I then showed how the auction will continue... listing a variety of openers rebids. One of which was 3S. Since he a) showed balanced hand, and B) I am looking at the spade ACE, this will be the spade king. In otherwords, no where was I advocating that slam is only biddable if parnter has the spade king. I simply was walking up A), B), C)...etc different bids parnter might make over 3H, and I can almost bet the one he will make is 3S. Having said that, a point of fact is that the spade king can be very important. Imagine paretner with S-KxxH-QxxxxD-KxC-Axx Isn't that a much Spade King golden? Club lead, win ace, cash spade ace, pull trumps, discard club on spade King. Now imagine:S-QJTH-QxxxxD-AJC-AJt The second hand has an bonus points: 16 versus 12 HCP, but I would rather be in slam on the FIRST hand, after a club lead the second one requires the diamond hook to be onside to make, or instead you can guess the spade king on side for ruffing finessee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishovnbg Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Hi Hongjun! When you bid something is not important what this bid mean in your system, but what message it send to your partner. Most of bridge players played rather "system", instead of reasonable bridge. 2DI is bad bid because of not good DI suit. Your p will not accept slam try with min and singleton in DI and he will be right. If you continue despite that, you can go down with bad duplication in SP and unavoidable loser in DI. Jacoby 2NT or similar convention is only choice in my opinion. You will receive singleton or A/K in DI as well. 2NT can be bad bid only if your p have both AK DI for grand - very rare. Misho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted November 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 Hi Hongjun! When you bid something is not important what this bid mean in your system, but what message it send to your partner. Most of bridge players played rather "system", instead of reasonable bridge. 2DI is bad bid because of not good DI suit. Your p will not accept slam try with min and singleton in DI and he will be right. If you continue despite that, you can go down with bad duplication in SP and unavoidable loser in DI. Jacoby 2NT or similar convention is only choice in my opinion. You will receive singleton or A/K in DI as well. 2NT can be bad bid only if your p have both AK DI for grand - very rare. Misho If we regard a hand with a single spade ace as a balanced hand, then 2N may be better. But not sure if it will work better than 2d. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 Peter's and Misho's post about the quality of the diamond suit is a point well taken. Yzerman posted here a long time ago a reasonable requirement for a 2 over 1 response being a "biddable" suit. His definition of "biddable" was a suit that CAN be playable opposite 3 small for 2 losers assuming 3/2 break in suit ("Hence Qxxxx is not biddable, Q10xxx is biddable"). This was part of a very nice thread discussing DC Standards potentially artificial 2C response which is GF but may or may not include clubs (see http://forums.bridgebase.com/in...t=msg322#msg322 So in general, a 2/1 response minimum requirements might best be described as: These included: [*] Five card or longer suit, QTxxx or better [*] Enough HCP to insure game Now, in the world of 2/1 bridge, people use a lot of different requirements. Some make 2/1 in four card suit with fit planning to raise later, and others even advocate in three card suit. My requirement is a five card suit, unless playing something like this artificial 2C bid. When lacking a "good enough" suit, for 2/1 GF but with enough values, Yzerman and many ohters adopt an artificial GF 2C, that may or may not include clubs. In fact, it could include short clubs and 5 in diamonds or the other major if those suits or Qxxxx or worse. So here he would respond 2C. If his partner bids 2D he will bid 3D to "establish" diamonds as trumps, and if partner can cue-bid clubs, or shows a club stopper, he will then use minorwood to determine if "6D is playable", but of course, he will end up playing in hearts. (no need to ask in hearts, as the trump queen should fall if partner lacks it and am looking at HEART AK). Imagine... 1H 2C 2D 3D 3N 4D (minor wood) 4H 4S (4H = 0-3 key cards. DAK + CA) 7H Pass I generally adopt the same rules governing a 2/1 about the quality of the suit (QTxxx or better). But with a huge fit for openers first suit, as in this case, I feel free to relax the requirement. The reason being, there is no way I will ever play this hand in diamonds (unless partner psyched 1H and passes 2D). So the requirement that the suit MIGHT be playable opposite xxx for 2 losers with a 3/2 split is not quite as critical (but partner with three small will be shocked if we lose three tricks in this suit). But playing in hearts EVEN IF my suit was QJT98, we could lose 3 tricks in this suit opposite xxx via a ruff after AK. But imagine the auction goes...1H 2D3D 3H4C 4N ? Now 4NT is 6 card RKC (AK of both red suits) and responses show key cards and red queens. So over 4NT 5C = 0 or 3 keys (out of six)5D = 1 or 4 keys (out of six)5H = 2 keys, neither red queen5S = 2 keys, One Queen 5N = 2keys, both queens Now, change my hand a bit, make it: S: A H: AKJXX D: JXXXX C: QJ I would not even consider bidding 2D. Here 2NT seems clearly more appropriate. An advantage to 2NT is that you can find out if your parnter has a singleton diamond. Such a holding would get you merrily on your way to slam. IF you bid 2D, your partner will not be so willing to show a singleton diamond via cue-bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 Pd, as the dealer, opened 1H, you hold: S: A H: AKJXX D: QXXXX C: XX What do you bid? Rank the following three bid: a) 3S(splinter) B) 2d(two over one), planning to raise pd later c) Jacoby 2N I think I will disagree with many posters here since I would bid a 2/1 2d with this hand. Game in hearts is a certainty so the only goal of this hand is to explore slam chances, I think that in order to be able to explore for slam chances we must show we have a diamond suit. Imagine pd supports our 2d bid with 3d. Now we bid 3s and pd cuebids 4c. Now an RKCB bid in diamonds (not hearts) is what we need to find out if we can win a grand in hearts, if pd has AK of diamonds and the cA. I can't imagine anything bad happening after a 1h-2d (GF) start. Luis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 But imagine the auction goes...1H 2D3D 3H4C 4N ? Now 4NT is 6 card RKC (AK of both red suits) and responses show key cards and red queens. So over 4NT why dont you play 4D minorwood over here to??? The way i play it, if we establish a minor fit below 3NT, 4 or the minor is RKC. So here, 4NT becomes RKC H... 4D control showing has little use imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 But imagine the auction goes...1H 2D3D 3H4C 4N ? Now 4NT is 6 card RKC (AK of both red suits) and responses show key cards and red queens. So over 4NT why dont you play 4D minorwood over here to??? The way i play it, if we establish a minor fit below 3NT, 4 or the minor is RKC. So here, 4NT becomes RKC H... 4D control showing has little use imo. I do play 4D over 3D as minorwood, but without a club control I would not bid 4D... as we could be off two top club tricks. After "two suit" agreement, and the 4C cue-bid, I am now in two suit agreement, so 4D would just be "last train" showing at least mild slam interest or better, to see what partner does, and would promise a spade control (the unbid suit), not minorwood. But once partner can show a club control with his 4C bid (and by the way, his 3D raise arleady shows either an excellent fit or extra values) six card blackwood is the key. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MesSer Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Piece of cake... 1M-2c(artificial game force) then partner bids something to describe his hand where you follow up with a 3d-bid that asks partner what his dia holding is... Like I said - piece of cake B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 But imagine the auction goes...1H 2D3D 3H4C 4N ? Now 4NT is 6 card RKC (AK of both red suits) and responses show key cards and red queens. So over 4NT why dont you play 4D minorwood over here to??? The way i play it, if we establish a minor fit below 3NT, 4 or the minor is RKC. So here, 4NT becomes RKC H... 4D control showing has little use imo. I do play 4D over 3D as minorwood, but without a club control I would not bid 4D... as we could be off two top club tricks. After "two suit" agreement, and the 4C cue-bid, I am now in two suit agreement, so 4D would just be "last train" showing at least mild slam interest or better, to see what partner does, and would promise a spade control (the unbid suit), not minorwood. But once partner can show a club control with his 4C bid (and by the way, his 3D raise arleady shows either an excellent fit or extra values) six card blackwood is the key. Free and Ben, I can't understand your 3H bids boys. Once pd supports diammonds you can just bid 4N, if he has AK of diamonds and the cA you play 7 hearts. If one of those key cards is missing you can play 6h.I can't understand why some players insist in making artistic bids.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Free and Ben, I can't understand your 3H bids boys. Once pd supports diammonds you can just bid 4N, if he has AK of diamonds and the cA you play 7 hearts. If one of those key cards is missing you can play 6h.I can't understand why some players insist in making artistic bids.... There is a very simple reason for me, Luis, I am staring at two little clubs. I need a club control from partner before I can bid a slam, and 3H will find out about the club control very nicely. It is game force, and requires partner to start cue-bidding. If he bids 3S (cue), I will bid 3NT (serious 3NT). If he then bypasses 4C, I stop at 4H. If he cue-bids 4C I will use two suit agreement blackwood. And if he bids a nearly impossible 4D over 3H (showing a hand like S-Qx H-KQJxx D-AKJ C-QJx, dspite his nice 19 hcp, we have nowhere to go. Even give him a monster like... S-KQJ H-KQJTx D-AKJ C-QJ, where are we going. If I blast with rkcb, I would find out we are missing one of the keycards, and very quickly we are down in 6H when they take two clubs off the top. Artistic? No, reasonable exploration? Certainly. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Free and Ben, I can't understand your 3H bids boys. Once pd supports diammonds you can just bid 4N, if he has AK of diamonds and the cA you play 7 hearts. If one of those key cards is missing you can play 6h.I can't understand why some players insist in making artistic bids.... There is a very simple reason for me, Luis, I am staring at two little clubs. I need a club control from partner before I can bid a slam, and 3H will find out about the club control very nicely. It is game force, and requires partner to start cue-bidding. If he bids 3S (cue), I will bid 3NT (serious 3NT). If he then bypasses 4C, I stop at 4H. If he cue-bids 4C I will use two suit agreement blackwood. And if he bids a nearly impossible 4D over 3H (showing a hand like S-Qx H-KQJxx D-AKJ C-QJx, dspite his nice 19 hcp, we have nowhere to go. Even give him a monster like... S-KQJ H-KQJTx D-AKJ C-QJ, where are we going. If I blast with rkcb, I would find out we are missing one of the keycards, and very quickly we are down in 6H when they take two clubs off the top. Artistic? No, reasonable exploration? Certainly. Ben What do you want to explore? With AK of d and the cA you play 7h without one of them you play 6, without two you play 5 and ask pd to open reasonable hands.So what is the purpose of 3h ? It will only be useful to confuse pd about what keycards are the ones that you need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 What do you want to explore? I want to make sure that my partner has a CLUB control BEFORE I commit to slam (small opposite two key cards). I assure you, I am bidding seven opposite 3 just fine. The three heart bid give us two suit trump agreement, so when I eventually use BLACKWOOD (assuming partner can cue-bid clubs), we will still get to seven. In addition, we get to six when he has a) two controls, and B) a club control. With AK of d and the cA you play 7h without one of them you play 6, without two you play 5 and ask pd to open reasonable hands. I consider S-KQJ H-Qxxxx D-AKJ C-QJ very reasonable. Your way gets you to six hearts off one on a club lead. My way stops in 4H without giving up on six. I consider,Kx QT9xxx AJT C-QJ not quite so reasonable, but my way stops savely in 4H, while your way gets you to 5H and loses two club on the lead and has only 50-50 chance of making 5H (must find diamond king). So what is the purpose of 3h ? It will only be useful to confuse pd about what keycards are the ones that you need. Sorry luis. The purpose of the game forcing 3H bid is starting a cue-bidding sequence is EXACTLY what this hand needs after the 3D raise. It allows you to find out about the CLUB control BEFORE you commit the hand above 4H's with blackwood. With two suit trump agreement, you can still find out about the DIAMOND-AK and club A with blackwood. And if partner lacks the club ACE, he will have to have the club KING (or stiff) before you go past 4H's. Far from confusing partner, your 3H bid tells him to give you exactly the information you need before continuing. If he has the club ACE, as you suppose, you will hear either a 3S Call (spade King)...where you can bid 3NT (serious 3NT) to give him a chance to show the ACE, or he will bid 4C over 3H to show, a) no spade king and B) club ACE, King, singleton, or void. HAving discovered if clubs are under control now you can use 4NT (and if they are not, you can stop safely in 4H). So you like to blast with these hands... go right ahead. Sometimes they will lead a spade even when you are off two club tricks, but I prefer the more comfortable way. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 What do you want to explore? I want to make sure that my partner has a CLUB control BEFORE I commit to slam (small opposite two key cards). I assure you, I am bidding seven opposite 3 just fine. The three heart bid give us two suit trump agreement, so when I eventually use BLACKWOOD (assuming partner can cue-bid clubs), we will still get to seven. In addition, we get to six when he has a) two controls, and B) a club control. With AK of d and the cA you play 7h without one of them you play 6, without two you play 5 and ask pd to open reasonable hands. I consider S-KQJ H-Qxxxx D-AKJ C-QJ very reasonable. Your way gets you to six hearts off one on a club lead. My way stops in 4H without giving up on six. I consider,Kx QT9xxx AJT C-QJ not quite so reasonable, but my way stops savely in 4H, while your way gets you to 5H and loses two club on the lead and has only 50-50 chance of making 5H (must find diamond king). So what is the purpose of 3h ? It will only be useful to confuse pd about what keycards are the ones that you need. Sorry luis. The purpose of the game forcing 3H bid is starting a cue-bidding sequence is EXACTLY what this hand needs after the 3D raise. It allows you to find out about the CLUB control BEFORE you commit the hand above 4H's with blackwood. With two suit trump agreement, you can still find out about the DIAMOND-AK and club A with blackwood. And if partner lacks the club ACE, he will have to have the club KING (or stiff) before you go past 4H's. Far from confusing partner, your 3H bid tells him to give you exactly the information you need before continuing. If he has the club ACE, as you suppose, you will hear either a 3S Call (spade King)...where you can bid 3NT (serious 3NT) to give him a chance to show the ACE, or he will bid 4C over 3H to show, a) no spade king and B) club ACE, King, singleton, or void. HAving discovered if clubs are under control now you can use 4NT (and if they are not, you can stop safely in 4H). So you like to blast with these hands... go right ahead. Sometimes they will lead a spade even when you are off two club tricks, but I prefer the more comfortable way. Ben Yeah, thats why I supossed you are afraid of losing 2 clubs.That was my point, with this particular hand I disagree with the idea of looking for a club control.... Even without cAK the slam is very good since you will go down only if the opening leader has both the cA and the cK. In hands were a slam is not so evident I'm 100% for your approach, I just think this hand is too slamish to bother about the club control. Just a personal theory :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Even without cAK the slam is very good since you will go down only if the opening leader has both the cA and the cK. I actually disagree with the premise that you will only get a club lead if opening leader has both the club ACE and King. For one thing, they are going to lead a black suit for sure. So you stand roughly a 50-50 chance for a club lead. And against this double fit auction, I would certainly not hesitate to lead away from a king, and I might well underlead an ace to put you to the test at trick one if you (dummy) had Kx of clubs. But no matter, I will avoid slam off two top clubs, and that is good enough for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Even without cAK the slam is very good since you will go down only if the opening leader has both the cA and the cK. I actually disagree with the premise that you will only get a club lead if opening leader has both the club ACE and King. For one thing, they are going to lead a black suit for sure. So you stand roughly a 50-50 chance for a club lead. And against this double fit auction, I would certainly not hesitate to lead away from a king, and I might well underlead an ace to put you to the test at trick one if you (dummy) had Kx of clubs. But no matter, I will avoid slam off two top clubs, and that is good enough for me. That's what YOU would do, but for the stats what counts is what happens in average. Anyway respectable position, more than mine but I take the chances. It's a matter of strategy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishovnbg Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Hi Luis and all 2DI bidders!A)Original from post S: A H: AKJXX D: QXXXX C: XX 2 examples of opening hand B) C)KQJx QJxQxxxx Qxxxxx KxxAxx Ax Now Luis, can you see how you can miss slam in B) and bid wrong one with C)? Misho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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