How do you defend after this signal....

[Winstonm]

[hv=d=e&v=b&w=sq1032hj107daq10ck74&s=s5ha54dkj85ca10962]266|200|Scoring: IMP

The auction:

 

1S-X-XX-2C

P-P-4S-P

P-P

 

[/hv]

 

You are playing with an established partner. On this auction, you decide to lead the club Ace. Dummy plays small, partner contributes the 8, and declarer the Q. From the bidding and play you know partner's exact club holding: J853.

 

Here are the questions: 1) What significance do you give the 8? 2) At imps, do you always play to defeat the contract at all costs, or do you guard against overtricks when it seems hopeless? 3) When playing with an expert, do you ever make exceptions for careless play? 4) If the contract is defeatable on a heart switch, would you credit your expert partner with playing the Jack of clubs? 5) Would you take a possible meaning of the 8 as I've got a little something in hearts but not much, such as the Qxx?

[lowerline]

[hv=d=e&v=b&w=sq1032hj107daq10ck74&s=s5ha54dkj85ca10962]266|200|Scoring: IMP

The auction:

 

1S-X-XX-2C

P-P-4S-P

P-P

 

[/hv]

 

You are playing with an established partner. On this auction, you decide to lead the club Ace. Dummy plays small, partner contributes the 8, and declarer the Q. From the bidding and play you know partner's exact club holding: J853.

 

Here are the questions: 1) What significance do you give the 8? 2) At imps, do you always play to defeat the contract at all costs, or do you guard against overtricks when it seems hopeless? 3) When playing with an expert, do you ever make exceptions for careless play? 4) If the contract is defeatable on a heart switch, would you credit your expert partner with playing the Jack of clubs? 5) Would you take a possible meaning of the 8 as I've got a little something in hearts but not much, such as the Qxx?

I would assume 'obvious shift'. The ♣3 encourages a heart switch, the ♣J strongly encourages a diamond switch, the ♣8 encourages to continue clubs. I interpret this as: stay away from hearts. I would switch to ♦8.

 

Steven

[ArcLight]

>You are playing with an established partner. On this auction, you decide to lead the club Ace. Dummy plays small, partner contributes the 8, and declarer the Q. From the bidding and play you know partner's exact club holding: J853.

 

I assume your pard is a good player (you mentioned expert, and I'll take you on your word).

 

This is obviously not an Attitude or Count signal. It must be a Suit preference signal. Pard could have played the 3 or J to ask for a shift. In this case the opponents now have a discard on the Club K. Pard is not asking for a shift.

 

- Those Diamonds are frightening.

- Declarer has a discard on the Club K

- If South has 12 HCP for an opening bid, then pard has at MOST 3 other HCP and probably less.

- South has 5(+) Spades, 1 Club and 6(-) reds, say 4-2 or 3-3.

 

What losers does south have? Maybe you can get a couple of hearts if pard has the K. But you will not give pard a heart ruff becaus ethat would mean South is 5-5 in the majors and would have bid again.

 

If declarer has the heart King and pard the Q, you may make 2 heart tricks by not leading hearts. If South has dimes and takes some finesses he will make 3. But maybe he will finesse the Q in order to enter dummy to finesse Spades, and you will make your King of Diamonds. Or maybe not if they are 3-3 and declarer can discard a dime on the Club K.

 

I think the contract is making, but I would not cash out.

I would not play the ace of hearts.

I would not play a low heart.

I would not play a spade.

 

Whats left? Diamonds.

Play the 8, maybe you fool declarer into playing teh Q. Maybe declarer plays the Ace!

 

 

♦8

 

 

 

>Here are the questions: 1) What significance do you give the 8?

 

Pard had a chance to signal and didnt. Thus "use your best judgment"

 

 

>2) At imps, do you always play to defeat the contract at all costs, or do you guard against overtricks when it seems hopeless?

 

Is there a risk that if you dont cash out you will lose your cashable winner?

If yes, then consider it. If its likely you will get it later then don't.

 

A better example would be if you had teh AKxxx in Clubs and knew the K would cash. DO you do it, establishing Dummys Q? Or wait and risk the loser can be discarded later.

In this case your heart ace is safe.

 

 

>3) When playing with an expert, do you ever make exceptions for careless play?

No. Obviously experts make mistakes, but one has to assume they usualy play correctly. If you start making exceptions you will be wrong sometimes and that will cause your pard to get annoyed and question your judgement. It WILL damage your team harmony.

 

>4) If the contract is defeatable on a heart switch, would you credit your expert partner with playing the Jack of clubs?

 

YES! Pard isn't stupid, they are making a request. Consider it.

 

 

> 5) Would you take a possible meaning of the 8 as I've got a little something in hearts but not much, such as the Qxx?

 

In theory that sounds nice. Will pard always be able to decipher it?

Does pard always know you have 4 cards and can make such a signal?

 

Lets assume pard has the ♥Q9xx. How does that help you? IF you lead low, and dummy puts in the 10, your Q is taken by the K and later teh J is made. Only if declarer doesn't insert the J do you benefit, with the 9 forcing the K.

 

In any case dont lead hearts.

 

Lead the dime. Declarer can always finesse, and teh other leads are harmful.

[barmar]

2) At imps, do you always play to defeat the contract at all costs, or do you guard against overtricks when it seems hopeless?

Unless the contract is doubled, overtricks are usually insignificant at IMPs. The only exception would be in a KO and you know that the match is extremely close, so any IMP could make the difference between winning and losing. But this can be really hard to judge -- no matter how routine the preceding boards seemed to you, all sorts of weird things could be going on at the other table. Meanwhile, even if setting looks impossible, sometimes declarers make mistakes and go down in cold contracts -- don't just give up to save an overtrick.

[Limey_p]

This is obviously not an Attitude or Count signal.  It must be a Suit preference signal.

Pard had no idea that you have 5 clubs and declarer has the stiff Q. The 8 should be a normal attitude signal, "please continue clubs". So he has no interest in a switch to hearts.

 

I agree with the switch to diamonds.

 

 

AP

[ArcLight]

>Pard had no idea that you have 5 clubs and declarer has the stiff Q. The 8 should be a normal attitude signal, "please continue clubs". So he has no interest in a switch to hearts.

 

You have a point. Pard didn't know the Q would drop (implying you hold 5 Clubs).

 

Pard may have a finessable holding and doesn't want a switch.

[Winstonm]

>Pard had no idea that you have 5 clubs and declarer has the stiff Q. The 8 should be a normal attitude signal, "please continue clubs". So he has no interest in a switch to hearts.

 

You have a point.  Pard didn't know the Q would drop (implying you hold 5 Clubs).

 

Pard may have  a finessable holding and doesn't want a switch.

Think about this. By looking at your own hand, dummy, and hearing the auction you should be able to come up with a pretty good respresentaion of all hands at trick one. Your hand actually is xxx, KQx, xxxx, J853.

 

Partner doubled and you are looking at the KQ of hearts. What are partner's heart cards likely to be? Axxx.

 

Declarer bid spades and doesn't have the AKQ of hearts, the AQ of diamonds, the A or K of clubs. What kind of spade suit do you think he holds? AKJxx.

 

What else would partner need to make a takeout double? x, Axxx, Kxxx, Axxx.

Isn't this about dead minimum for a vulnerable t.o, double? Would partner lead the club ace from AQxx? No.

 

What does that leave for declarer? AKJxx, (K?)xxx, Jxx, Q(x).

 

There you have it, pretty much, and all at trick one by seeing the opening lead, reviewing the bidding, and visualizing hands. Now that you know the hands, what signal would you make holding: xxx, KQx, xxxx, J8xx? Seems clear your duty is to try as hard as you can to get a heart shift, doesn't it? Hence, the Jack of clubs should be automatic it would seem from that holding. So the question becomes, if partner did not play the J, is he denying holding the K or KQ of hearts?

[ArcLight]

> So the question becomes, if partner did not play the J, is he denying holding the K or KQ of hearts?

 

Unless declarer opened light (10 HCP missing 3 aces and 2 kings, and a stiff Q of clubs) there is no room in pards hand for the KQ of hearts. Pard is worried you will break a new suit for declarer.

>xxx, KQx, xxxx, J853.

What did declarer open on?

♠AKxxx

♥Jxx

♦xxx

♣Q

 

Is that an opening bid?

 

 

As for pard guessing our Club length - South made a takeout double, but that doesn't mean he has 1-4-4-4 shape. He might have 3 Clubs.

 

He can't signal with the J if South has Qx. He will make pard think he has the Q.

[Winstonm]

He can't signal with the J if South has Qx. He will make pard think he has the Q.

 

 

The Jack would deny the Queen...when signalling in the fashion, you play the top card guaranteeing the card below. The Q would be harder to read - the Q might either be promising the J or a switch signal.

 

And yes, people do open on AKJxxx, xxx, xxx, Q. Which is the actual hand.

 

Again that is the point - do you try to construct a hand that you think is reasonable or do you trust that if partner could see that a heart switch was needed he would have played the J and not the 8, even if that means declarer opened a hand that you feel is substandard?

 

You are also right in that after the opening lead defeating this looks hopeless. Even assuming AKJxx, Kxxx, xxx, Q he has at most 1 club and 2 hearts to lose. The only way to prevent an overtrick is if partner holds Q9x of hearts - so do you plunk down the Ace and risk giving the overtrick in case partner has the KQx of hearts or do you go passive?

[ArcLight]

>The Jack would deny the Queen...when signalling in the fashion, you play the top card guaranteeing the card below. The Q would be harder to read - the Q might either be promising the J or a switch signal.

 

You have a point. The Jack would be an extraordinary signal. PLEASE shift to the higher suit. The 8 is in the middle, continue teh suit.

 

Should it be interpreted as "I may have something in hearts"? Its an interesting idea (if your pard can be sure to read it clearly).

 

 

>And yes, people do open on AKJxxx, xxx, xxx, Q. Which is the actual hand.

 

I would expect a 2♠ bid on that, unless that hand is too strong for a 2♠ if the partnership uses wild 2's and 3's.

 

If the Q were in the other Reds I could see it, but it would never occur to me to construct a hand like that for declarer.

 

 

>Again that is the point - do you try to construct a hand that you think is reasonable

 

Yes

 

>or do you trust that if partner could see that a heart switch was needed he would have played the J and not the 8, even if that means declarer opened a hand that you feel is substandard?

 

This is a difficult question. In the case of the Club 8 I don't think thats a clear signal. Perhaps its a hint, compared to the J which is a signal.

 

In the absense of prior discussion I think the 8 would be interpreted as Attitude - continue the suit, even though pard could play a lower middle card.

If pard played teh lower middle card, he might fear you would shift to the lowest suit.

 

 

I think I'm misunderstanding something.

How does leading a heart help your side?

You will get the Ace, thats it. Let them lead it and you get 2 (or 1 with the Club discard). That discard is cold.

 

>You are also right in that after the opening lead defeating this looks hopeless. Even assuming AKJxx, Kxxx, xxx, Q he has at most 1 club and 2 hearts to lose. The only way to prevent an overtrick is if partner holds Q9x of hearts - so do you plunk down the Ace and risk giving the overtrick in case partner has the KQx of hearts or do you go passive?

 

At IMPs I personally try to go for the set, at the risk of losing an over trick, unless I'm 95% sure the contract is cold. Then I'll cash out

1 IMP is worth something. Better to get 19 than 11 over 20 hands.