MIdeast conflict

[Walddk]

Some might find this interesting. A speech delivered by Ehud Olmert, the Prime Minister of Israel, on July 31:

 

.....

 

Ladies and gentlemen, leaders of the world. I, the Prime Minister of Israel, am speaking to you from Jerusalem in the face of the terrible pictures from Kfar Kana. Any human heart, wherever it is, must sicken and recoil at the sight of such pictures. There are no words of comfort that can mitigate the enormity of this tragedy. Still, I am looking you straight in the eyes and telling you that the State of Israel will continue its military campaign in Lebanon.

 

The Israel Defense Forces will continue to attack targets from which missiles and Katyusha rockets are fired at hospitals, old age homes and kindergartens in Israel. I have instructed the security forces and the IDF to continue to hunt for the Katyusha stockpiles and launch sites from which these savages are bombarding the State of Israel.

 

We will not hesitate, we will not apologize and we will not back off. If they continue to launch missiles into Israel from Kfar Kana, we will continue to bomb Kfar Kana.

 

Today, tomorrow and the day after tomorrow. Here, there and everywhere. The children of Kfar Kana could now be sleeping peacefully in their homes, unmolested, had the agents of the devil not taken over their land and turned the lives of our children into hell.

 

Ladies and gentlemen, it's time you understood: the Jewish state will no longer be trampled upon. We will no longer allow anyone to exploit population centers in order to bomb our citizens. No one will be able to hide anymore behind women and children in order to kill our women and children. This anarchy is over. You can condemn us, you can boycott us, you can stop visiting us and, if necessary, we will stop visiting you.

 

Today I am serving as the voice of six million bombarded Israeli citizens who serve as the voice of six million murdered Jews who were melted down to dust and ashes by savages in Europe. In both cases, those responsible for these evil acts were, and are, barbarians devoid of all humanity, who set themselves one simple goal: to wipe the Jewish race off the face of the earth, as Adolf Hitler said, or to wipe the State of Israel off the map, as Mahmoud Ahmedinjad proclaims.

 

And you - just as you did not take those words seriously then, you are ignoring them again now. And that, ladies and gentlemen, leaders of the world, will not happen again. Never again will we wait for bombs that never came to hit the gas chambers. Never again will we wait for salvation that never arrives.

 

Now we have our own air force. The Jewish people are now capable of standing up to those who seek their destruction – those people will no longer be able to hide behind women and children. They will no longer be able to evade their responsibility.

 

Every place from which a Katyusha is fired into the State of Israel will be a legitimate target for us to attack. This must be stated clearly and publicly, once and for all. You are welcome to judge us, to ostracize us, to boycott us and to vilify us. But to kill us? Absolutely not.

 

Four months ago I was elected by hundreds of thousands of citizens to the office of Prime Minister of the government of Israel, on the basis of my plan for unilaterally withdrawing from 90 percent of the areas of Judea and Samaria, the birth place and cradle of the Jewish people; to end most of the occupation and to enable the Palestinian people to turn over a new leaf and to calm things down until conditions are ripe for attaining a permanent settlement between us.

 

The Prime Minister who preceded me, Ariel Sharon, made a full withdrawal from the Gaza Strip back to the international border, and gave the Palestinians there a chance to build a new reality for themselves. The Prime Minister who preceded him, Ehud Barak, ended the lengthy Israeli presence in Lebanon and pulled the IDF back to the international border, leaving the land of the cedars to flourish, develop and establish its democracy and its economy.

 

What did the State of Israel get in exchange for all of this? Did we win even one minute of quiet? Was our hand, outstretched in peace, met with a handshake of encouragement? Ehud Barak's peace initiative at Camp David let loose on us a wave of suicide bombers who smashed and blew to pieces over 1,000 citizens, men, women and children. I don't remember you being so enraged then.

 

Maybe that happened because we did not allow TV close-ups of the dismembered body parts of the Israeli youngsters at the Dolphinarium? Or of the shattered lives of the people butchered while celebrating the Passover seder at the Park Hotel in Netanya? What can you do - that's the way we are. We don't wave body parts at the camera. We grieve quietly.

 

We do not dance on the roofs at the sight of the bodies of our enemy's children - we express genuine sorrow and regret. That is the monstrous behavior of our enemies. Now they have risen up against us. Tomorrow they will rise up against you. You are already familiar with the murderous taste of this terror. And you will taste more.

 

And Ariel Sharon's withdrawal from Gaza. What did it get us? A barrage of Kassem missiles fired at peaceful settlements and the kidnapping of soldiers. Then too, I don't recall you reacting with such alarm. And for six years, the withdrawal from Lebanon has drawn the vituperation and crimes of a dangerous, extremist Iranian agent, who took over an entire country in the name of religious fanaticism and is trying to take Israel hostage on his way to Jerusalem - and from there to Paris and London.

 

An enormous terrorist infrastructure has been established by Iran on our border, threatening our citizens, growing stronger before our very eyes, awaiting the moment when the land of the Ayatollahs becomes a nuclear power in order to bring us to our knees. And make no mistake - we won't go down alone. You, the leaders of the free and enlightened world, will go down along with us.

 

So today, here and now, I am putting an end to this parade of hypocrisy. I don't recall such a wave of reaction in the face of the 100 citizens killed every single day in Iraq. Sunnis kill Shiites who kill Sunnis, and all of them kill Americans - and the world remains silent.

 

And I am hard pressed to recall a similar reaction when the Russians destroyed entire villages and burned down large cities in order to repress the revolt in Chechenya. And when NATO bombed Kosovo for almost three months and crushed the civilian population - then you also kept silent. What is it about us, the Jews, the minority, the persecuted, that arouses this cosmic sense of justice in you? What do we have that all the others don't?

 

In a loud clear voice, looking you straight in the eyes, I stand before you openly and I will not apologize. I will not capitulate. I will not whine.

 

This is a battle for our freedom. For our humanity. For the right to live normal lives within our recognized, legitimate borders. It is also your battle. I pray and I believe that now you will understand that.

 

Because if you don't, you may regret it later, when it's too late.

 

[Aberlour10]

There is an appeal in the lobby to keep the politics out of BBO, do we support it with all these threads here? I don't think so.

 

Robert

[Walddk]

There is an appeal in the lobby to keep the politics out of BBO, do we support it with all these threads here? I don't think so.

 

Robert

Not only do we not support political manifestations in the lobby; they are against the Rules of this Site. The same applies to political views in player profiles.

 

Threads in the BBO Forums are a different ballgame altogether. Almost anything is allowed in the Water Cooler, although Uday earlier has expressed doubts.

 

Roland

[hrothgar]

So today, here and now, I am putting an end to this parade of hypocrisy. I don't recall such a wave of reaction in the face of the 100 citizens killed every single day in Iraq. Sunnis kill Shiites who kill Sunnis, and all of them kill Americans - and the world remains silent.

 

And I am hard pressed to recall a similar reaction when the Russians destroyed entire villages and burned down large cities in order to repress the revolt in Chechenya.

I'd like to bring up a simple analogy:

 

Why does the world focus such attention on the Shoah while ignoring mass killings in the Soviet Union or the Killing Fields in Cambodia. The difference isn't related to the specific nature of the victims; Rather we are horrified because the Holocaust was committed by Germans. Simple put, there is a double standard. One expects more of from the land of Goethe than one does of the Russians. In a similar fashion, the Israeli's get held to a higher standard because one hopes that they are a civilized people.

 

The Israeli's better pray each and every day that folks continue to hold this double standard. The world happily sat by and watched hundred's of thousands of Tutsui and Hutus hack each other apart with machetes not 20 years back. In a similar fashion, the US sold chemicals weapons to Saddam. We didn't really care much because he was only targetting Irans and Kurds and they don't count.

 

They day that the West stops expecting "more" from the Israelis is the day the Americans stop expediting the delivery of your air force's jet fuel and the clusters bombs that you rain down on your neighbors. We'll start treating you just like we treat everyone else. Trust me when I suggest that you won't like that...

[rona_]

Yes we are used to the speeches and apologies by now. Israel is deeply deeply sorry for the unfortunate loss of civilian life..and boom within the next few minutes another civilian building has been levelled and 30 civilians dead. No one buys their stories anymore. I don't like Hezbollah but at least they're don't pretend to be sorry for what they have done. Let's face it. I think Israel is a terrorist state, they have had 3 prime ministers that I think are terrorists, hezbollah and hamas are also terrorists in my view. Ariel Sharon masterminded the Sabra and Shatila massacres in 1982 in Lebanon and guarded the Palestinian camps while the Phalangists (a Lebanese militia group), executed a few thousand palestinian refugees. Posting that speech here is in bad taste. I am not siding with anyone, I just think that one-sided propaganda speeches shouldn't be posted here. This is supposed to be a forum for friendly discussion and not for Zionist or Arab propaganda. How about some history instead . Tell readers about the Balfour Declaration in 1917, how the state of Israel was created, why Hezbollah was created etc.

[rona_]

 

Group: Members

Posts: 2360

Member No.: 945

Joined: 30-September 03

 

 

 

 

QUOTE (Aberlour10 @ Aug 12 2006, 12:32 AM)

There is an appeal in the lobby to keep the politics out of BBO, do we support it with all these threads here? I don't think so.

 

Robert

 

Not only do we not support political manifestations in the lobby; they are against the Rules of this Site. The same applies to political views in player profiles.

 

Threads in the BBO Forums are a different ballgame altogether. Almost anything is allowed in the Water Cooler, although Uday earlier has expressed doubts.

 

Roland

 

 

Everthing should be allowed except intentional propaganda.

[Walddk]

Yes we are used to the speeches and apologies by now. Israel is deeply deeply sorry for the unfortunate loss of civilian life..and boom within the next few minutes another civilian building has been levelled and 30 civilians dead. No one buys their  stories anymore. I don't like Hezbollah but at least they're don't  pretend to be sorry for what they have done.  Let's face it. Israel is a terrorist state,  they have had 3 prime ministers that were terrorists,  hezbollah and hamas are also  terrorists in my view.  Ariel Sharon masterminded the Sabra and Shatila massacres in 1982 in Lebanon and guarded the Palestinian camps while the Phalangists (a Lebanese militia group), executed a few thousand palestinian refugees. Posting that speech here is in bad taste.  I am not siding with anyone, I just think that one-sided propaganda speeches shouldn't be posted here. This is supposed to be a forum for friendly discussion and not for Zionist or Arab propaganda. How about some history instead . Tell readers about the Balfour Declaration in 1917, how the state of Israel was created, why Hezbollah was created etc.

Rest assured that you will be the first to know if I want your opinion as to what's appropriate to write or not write in the forums. I didn't even express my view. It was a 100% correct quote, and I find it interesting, whether you like it or not.

 

"Israel is a terrorist state", you write. I do not agree, but you are certainly entitled to think and write what you want. Perhaps you would allow others to do the same?

 

"I am not siding with anyone", is truly hilarious when you claim that the Israelis are terrorists and say nothing about what some of their neighbours are.

 

Roland

[luke warm]

Yes we are used to the speeches and apologies by now. Israel is deeply deeply sorry for the unfortunate loss of civilian life..and boom within the next few minutes another civilian building has been levelled and 30 civilians dead. No one buys their  stories anymore. I don't like Hezbollah but at least they're don't  pretend to be sorry for what they have done.  Let's face it. Israel is a terrorist state,  they have had 3 prime ministers that were terrorists,  hezbollah and hamas are also  terrorists in my view.  Ariel Sharon masterminded the Sabra and Shatila massacres in 1982 in Lebanon and guarded the Palestinian camps while the Phalangists (a Lebanese militia group), executed a few thousand palestinian refugees. Posting that speech here is in bad taste.  I am not siding with anyone, I just think that one-sided propaganda speeches shouldn't be posted here. This is supposed to be a forum for friendly discussion and not for Zionist or Arab propaganda. How about some history instead . Tell readers about the Balfour Declaration in 1917, how the state of Israel was created, why Hezbollah was created etc.

it's true, rona, that we can go further and further back in history, but to what end? it's my view (from a worldly standpoint) that if hezbollah, or hamas, or any other country lauches attacks from population centers they should not be shocked when there is a counter attack on those same centers

 

what olmert said is true... hamas broke the peace by killing and kidnapping soldiers, across the border - a border they seemingly no longer want or need... hezbollah did the same... in america we have our own fringe terrorists, yet the vast majority here have no qualms with crushing them when and where they rear their heads...

 

maybe richard is correct that the world holds israel to a higher standard... that's all well and good, but an enemy who uses another's standards against them (and uses its own women and children as shields because of a fear to fight otherwise) can't be given carte blanche

 

the part of your post that i personally found the most objectionable was this, "I don't like Hezbollah but at least they're don't pretend to be sorry for what they have done." ... that sounds as if it's somehow better to be an unabashed aggressor than a reluctant responder

[rona_]

Not only do we not support political manifestations in the lobby; they are against the Rules of this Site. The same applies to political views in player profiles.

 

Threads in the BBO Forums are a different ballgame altogether. Almost anything is allowed in the Water Cooler, although Uday earlier has expressed doubts.

 

Roland

 

 

Who is WE anyway..are you part of the bbo management now?

 

You are welcome to your opinion that Israel isn't a terrorist state just as I am happy to state that I think they are and so are Hez and Hamas. There are many speeches that I could post here that are one-sided, however I don't feel it's fair to do so. Goodnight. Oh and before I go just remind Bush not to insist on democratic elections in Egypt because then whoops, here comes the Moslem Brotherhood with 70 million inhabitants and counting.

[Walddk]

Group: Members

Posts: 2360

Member No.: 945

Joined: 30-September 03

 

 

 

 

QUOTE (Aberlour10 @ Aug 12 2006, 12:32 AM)

There is an appeal in the lobby to keep the politics out of BBO, do we support it with all these threads here? I don't think so.

 

Robert

 

Not only do we not support political manifestations in the lobby; they are against the Rules of this Site. The same applies to political views in player profiles.

 

Threads in the BBO Forums are a different ballgame altogether. Almost anything is allowed in the Water Cooler, although Uday earlier has expressed doubts.

 

Roland

 

 

Everthing should be allowed except intentional propaganda.

Since you have taken bits from my profile, it would be interesting to know if you think I have written 2360 posts of intentional propaganda.

 

Roland

[Rain]

Watercooler currently goes by less rigid rules than BBO itself and the other threads in BBF.

 

This moderator believes so far the posts have been on topic. The easiest rule to remember is this:

In general, please follow this rule of thumb (which is a good rule I've picked up from another forum): If you aren't comfortable emailing a post to your grandmother/mother/colleague, then it probably shouldn't be posted here.

 

Posts quoting the bible or possible propaganda are probably allowed, unless they violate other watercooler post rules.

 

However, although so far on topic, from experience, it appears as though this thread has a real danger of spiralling into the personal attack arena. You don't need to insult someone by saying "you're a pig!" to launch the first missile. Oftentimes its obviously just as incendiary to attack a religion or a country.

If that happens, this thread will be pulled and posting rights may be affected.

 

Some posts in this thread have been edited to remove potentially upsetting contents.

[rona_]

maybe richard is correct that the world holds israel to a higher standard... that's all well and good, but an enemy who uses another's standards against them (and uses its own women and children as shields because of a fear to fight otherwise) can't be given carte blanche

 

Jimmy I don't believe everything that I read:) I know for a fact that Israel has been bombing buildings and areas that they shouldn't have come close to. I agree with you that we can't go back and back in history and I believe in Israel's right to exist. But they are turning the whole Arab world against them and making Nasrallah a hero which he is not. I think both Israel and the US have been very short-sighted starting with the war in Iraq and now this vicious attack on Lebanon where they had so much support. Now I am really going to bed:)

[mike777]

Not only do we not support political manifestations in the lobby; they are against the Rules of this Site. The same applies to political views in player profiles.

 

Threads in the BBO Forums are a different ballgame altogether. Almost anything is allowed in the Water Cooler, although Uday earlier has expressed doubts.

 

Roland

 

 

Who is WE anyway..are you part of the bbo management now?

 

You are welcome to your opinion that Israel isn't a terrorist state just as I am happy to state that I think they are and so are Hez and Hamas. There are many speeches that I could post here that are one-sided, however I don't feel it's fair to do so. Goodnight. Oh and before I go just remind Bush not to insist on democratic elections in Egypt because then whoops, here comes the Moslem Brotherhood with 70 million inhabitants and counting.

Well I think you do not carry through with your thinking.

 

It may very well be that having the Muslim Brotherhood or similiar groups coming to political power is a necessary step to a more peace loving group coming to power?

 

I do not know but at the very least I think it is an issue worth discussing. You just seem to dismiss it out of hand?

[jtfanclub]

But they are turning the whole Arab world against them and making Nasrallah a hero which he is not. I think both Israel and the US have been very short-sighted starting with the war in Iraq and now this vicious attack on Lebanon where they had so much support.

Because God knows the Arabs were on their side before.

 

Hezbollah is the most powerful military force in Lebanon right now. It's hardly the ragtag few hundreds they claim to be. This is a war that's been going on for some time. Israel pulled out of the Litani River area just six years ago- do you think the people there have lived in peace and prosperity for the last six years?

 

If you asked the citizens of Berlin in 1942 what they thought of the bombing raids of the Allies, what do you think they would have said? That the Lebanese don't like being bombed shouldn't come as a shock. Doesn't mean they won't like the result if it ends up with them having a free country. I'm sure they won't forget it, any more than Japan has forgotten Hiroshima. Somehow, they manage to do business with us.

 

As far as the rest of the 'Arab World', riiight. I don't see Egypt, Jordan, Bahrain, the UAE, etc. doing anything exciting. I don't see their people doing anything exciting. I do see a proxy war with Israel on one side and Syria and Iran on the other going on, but in case you didn't notice, Syria has been having a proxy war in Lebanon against Israel for almost 30 years now, and Iran's leaders were talking about destroying Israel long before this started. As far as the protests are concerned, I seem to recall protests of the same size going on before. It's not like there was a shortage of "Death to the Jews" marches a couple of months ago.

 

This is old wartime propaganda. Every war brings out the usual protests about how the other side is killing civillians and how everybody loves us so you should stop fighting us. No country who stops fighting because civillians might be killed or because killing the enemy might 'inspire' more enemies will survive as a country for long.

[kenberg]

What do the Muslim/Arabs/Iran want from Israel and why does not Israel just give it to them.

Old Indian saying "If all men want the same thing, every brave want my squaw". Updated a few years back to "different strokes for different folks". Here is one answer to the question, from a recent newscast.

 

A Hezbollah bomb wiped out a dwelling, killing the man inside. His brother contacted the hospital and told them his brother's organs could be taken for medical use. A doctor called back and said an Arab man was on the list of recipients. The man said fine and the operation was done. In this case, an Arab wanted a cornea, an Israeli did give it to him, as you suggest.

 

Here is another answer. Some Arabs see every inch of ground within the state of Israel as properly Arab ground. They want it back, the Israeli's want to keep it. So they won't give it to them because they want to keep it.

 

No doubt most folks are less generous than the man in the first answer, less determined to the total destruction of Israel than those in the second answer. Is it possible for an agreement strong enough that those who accept it will rein in those who wish to sabotage it? I seriously doubt it.

 

As to claims of injustice, no doubt any partisan on any side can supply plenty. I suppose a Comanchee could make a convincing claim that my house is on acestral tribal lands. It may well be true. He can't have my house.

 

God has some responsibility for this. He told at least two different religious groups that this land was theirs by divine right. This leads to trouble.

 

Ken

[rona_]

Well I think you do not carry through with your thinking.

 

It may very well be that having the Muslim Brotherhood or similiar groups coming to political power is a necessary step to a more peace loving group coming to power?

 

I do not know but at the very least I think it is an issue worth discussing. You just seem to dismiss it out of hand

 

The organisation's motto is: Allah is our objective. The Prohet is our Leader. Qu'ran is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope.

 

An important aspect of the Muslim Brotherhood ideology is the sanctioning of Jihad such as the 2004 fatwa issued by Sheikh Yousef Al-Qaradhawi making it a religious obligation of Muslims to abduct and kill USA citizens in Iraq.

 

Yes I do not carry through with my thinking.

[luke warm]

God has some responsibility for this. He told at least two different religious groups that this land was theirs by divine right. This leads to trouble.

 

Ken

i didn't know that... does it come from the same or different sources?

[Walddk]

I think both Israel and the US have been very short-sighted starting with the war in Iraq and now this vicious attack on Lebanon where they had so much support.

What did you expect Israel to do when Hezbollah kidnapped their soldiers and launched rockets all over the place? Lean back and let it happen?

 

Exactly that happened during World War II because the Jews had no defence. Things have changed. The Jews are capable of defending themselves now, and they have every right to do that when they are attacked.

 

So the Israelis are trying to destroy Hezbollah whose fighters hide everywhere, not least among what is known as "innocent women and children". Therefore, it's hardly a shock that there will be civilian casualties.

 

Name a war that hasn't caused the deaths of civilians. It's deplorable, but also unavoidable.

 

Roland

[mike777]

Well I think you do not carry through with your thinking.

 

It may very well be that having the Muslim Brotherhood or similiar groups coming to political power is a necessary step to a more peace loving group coming to power?

 

I do not know but at the very least I think it is an issue worth discussing. You just seem to dismiss it out of hand

 

The organisation's motto is: Allah is our objective. The Prohet is our Leader. Qu'ran is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope.

 

An important aspect of the Muslim Brotherhood ideology is the sanctioning of Jihad such as the 2004 fatwa issued by Sheikh Yousef Al-Qaradhawi making it a religious obligation of Muslims to abduct and kill USA citizens in Iraq.

 

Yes I do not carry through with my thinking.

Good Grief we know all of that. Do you not think anyone knows about these groups or the history of the mideast besides you. :(

 

 

Please tell us something we do not know. :)

 

With all of that said I will repeat, yes the they may come to power or some similiar group. I do not know but it may or may not be worse than what we have now. Worth discussing at least. :)

[rona_]

Please tell us something we do not know. smile.gif

 

 

Where do I begin.......... :(

[pbleighton]

"It may very well be that having the Muslim Brotherhood or similiar groups coming to political power is a necessary step to a more peace loving group coming to power?"

 

Unfortunately, I think that this is true.

 

The West has installed and supported brutal, corrupt dicatorships in the Middle East for decades (not to mention colonization before that). The only force in these societies which the governments dared not mess with too much is religion. This has led to the rise of various "political Islams", which are:

1. Fundamentalist, and wishing to overthrow the secular governments, and replace them with theocracies, as in Iran.

2. Anti-Israel.

3. In many cases anti-Western. The degree of this varies. This is frequently misinterpreted in the West as being "destroy the West". This is, in fact, a very small minority view. The majority view is "kill as many Westerners as necessary in order to get the West out of all Muslim countries". The CIA reported that even Bin Laden, who initially opposed the 9/11 plan, changed his mind after the U.S. continued its support of Israel's handling of the Palestinian situation.

 

This has become the dominant political force in the Muslim world, particularly in the Middle East.

 

It is a poisonous situation, as is always the case when religion and politics mix. Theocracy will have its day. Iran shows hope, though. Most of the younger generation has turned against the mullahs, and is thoroughly sick of theocracy.

In the meantime, expect fundamentalist, anti-Israel parties to win elections, as they have in Palestine and Iraq.

 

Israel is a huge sticking point. It strengthens the fundamentalists' position immeasurably. As difficult as it will be, peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians is necessary for the Middle East, and for the world, especially in these nuclear times.

 

As an analogy, see Northern Ireland - the support of the Irish Catholic Church in the Irish struggle against the British has made Ireland the most Catholic country by far in an otherwise increasingly secular Europe. Religious divisions make the Northrn Ireland problem a lot more difficult. The position of the Northern Irish Protestants/British descendants is somewhat analogous to the Israelis - even though they should not have been there originally, in their words "It's our country too", and they are not going anywhere. OTOH, they finally started to negotiate seriously, and peace, while not quite there, is visible.

 

And, of course, the invasion of Iraq was a huge gift to the more extreme versions of political Islam.

 

Peter

[hrothgar]

 

>What did you expect Israel to do when Hezbollah kidnapped their soldiers and

>launched rockets all over the place? Lean back and let it happen?

 

Simply put, yes...

 

An occassional kidnapping and a rocket here and there is not a threat to Israel's existence. These types of incidents are certainly very regretable, however, I don't think that there is any good way to stop them. Consider this as a cost of doing business. The Israeli's made a concious decision to act as colonial overlords and used military force and ethnic cleansing to seize large amounts of Arab land. The Israelis deliberately subsidized the colonization of the West bank by granting large tax breaks to settlers. In return, the Israelis get to live with the occasional rocket attack and suicide bombings.

 

>Exactly that happened during World War II because the Jews had no defence.

>Things have changed. The Jews are capable of defending themselves now,

>and they have every right to do that when they are attacked.

 

The Israeli's aren't defending themselves - the rocket attacks and suicide bombings aren't stopping - they are simply inflciting pain on their neighbors and radicalizing whole new generations of Arabs. You might buy a temporary cessation of hostilities this way, but its no way to build a lasting peace. WMD strikes against Haifa and Tel'Aviv are inevitable consequences of this set of policies. Keep heading down this path and you're going to get a whole new Holocaust to accompany the last one.

 

Golda Meir famously said "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us". I think that there is a corollary to this: The Arabs need to believe that the future offers some hope for their children. Take away away this hope and the only think that folks have left is violence. The Israeli attacks on Lebanon destroyed the economic infrastructure of an entire country and devasted the tourism industry. The Israeli's deprived generations of Lebanese any hope to better their lives. I suspect that this is going to have some ugly consequences for border security.

 

Furthermore, the Israelis demonstrated that they have a handsome ability to bomb bridges, hospitals, and apartment complexes, but they're not doing nearly so well on the ground. Yes, the Israelis are advancing, but they are losing large numbers of tanks and men. Hezbollah is providing the Arab world with an example of Arabs "successfully" standing up to the vaunted Israeli army. The Arabs can afford to lose a lot more people than the Israelis and i'm sure that they're thrill to trade RPGs for Merkavas.

 

In short, this conflict is

 

1. Antagonising the Arab population

2. Unifying Arab support behind Hezbollah

3. Providing a model on how to oppose the Israeli army

 

The ONLY thing that is going to bring peace that hellhole is providing economic opportunity for impoverished Arabs, and you aren't going to achieve this with airstrikes, artillery barrages, or tanks.

[luke warm]

An occassional kidnapping and a rocket here and there is not a threat to Israel's existence.

huh? :blink: ... would other countries do the same?

 

The Israeli's made a concious decision to act as colonial overlords and used military force and ethnic cleansing to seize large amounts of Arab land.  The Israelis deliberately subsidized the colonization of the West bank by granting large tax breaks to settlers.  In return, the Israelis get to live with the occasional rocket attack and suicide bombings.

ahhh... it's their fault, so take it like a man

 

The Israeli's aren't defending themselves - the rocket attacks and suicide bombings aren't stopping - they are simply inflciting pain on their neighbors and radicalizing whole new generations of Arabs.

certainly they're defending themselves... the fact that an enemy presses an attack isn't proof of a lack of defense... maybe it's proof of a lack of a suitable (or preferred) defense, but that's all

 

WMD strikes against Haifa and Tel'Aviv are inevitable consequences of this set of policies.  Keep heading down this path and you're going to get a whole new Holocaust to accompany the last one.

if wmd strikes are lauched, some country in the mid east will be vaporized, i think...

 

Golda Meir famously said "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us".  I think that there is a corollary to this:  The Arabs need to believe that the future offers some hope for their children.

my gut instinct tells me that a child has more hope when s/he isn't told, "here, strap on this backpack and take the 715 to haifa... don't worry, i'll keep supper warm for ya".... or when a family is told, "nah, there's no danger - we'll put the rockets in the upstairs room and lauch from the roof.. everything will be fine"

 

Hezbollah is providing the Arab world with an example of Arabs "successfully" standing up to the vaunted Israeli army.

yes, invade israel, hit and run (preferably with some kidnapped hostages), come back to your cities and lauch from those areas... when the israeli army enters, be sure they can't get you unless they get women and children... then sit back and wait for the world to tell israel why they should just take it

 

The ONLY thing that is going to bring peace that hellhole is providing economic opportunity for impoverished Arabs, and you aren't going to achieve this with airstrikes, artillery barrages, or tanks.

the only thing that will bring peace is the quote you used from meir... it appears that won't happen anytime soon...

[hrothgar]

An occassional kidnapping and a rocket here and there is not a threat to Israel's existence.

huh? :blink: ... would other countries do the same?

The Indian and the Pakistani's (for that matter the Indians and Chinese) regularly trade artillery rounds on the border

 

The British didn't launch a military assaults on the Repblic of Ireland (or for that matter the USA) despite widespread aid given to the IRA

 

The Spanish didn't launch airstrikes againtst ETA

 

Thailand doesn't appear to have any plans to invade Indonesia

 

Yes, to some extent countries need to suck it up and take it like a man and exercise restraint because the alternative doesn't work...

 

The age of the colonial empires is gone...

Stealing territory by force doesn't work any more.

[Walddk]

An occassional kidnapping and a rocket here and there is not a threat to Israel's existence.

9/11 wasn't a threat to USA's existence either. So your compatriots should also just lean back and take it as men, I suppose. What a morbid way of thinking.

 

Or maybe you have other moral standards when it comes to the USA? If it same applies to *your* country, I would like to hear how you will be feeling if *your* family members are blown to pieces.

 

Shrug?

 

Roland