MIdeast conflict

[Walddk]

I note on the news channel just now they asked what does Hezbollah and Iran and Syria want.  Again they danced around the issue but no said or even implied the total destruction of Israel.

Why don't you call your news channel and ask them to tell it every time you turn on the telly? Or do you expect us to do it for you?

 

A person like yourself who doesn't know what Hamas and Hezbollah stand for should actually have it turned on 24/7. A few hours ago I told you, and now you think this forum is a good place to tell that you are unhappy with your news channel?

 

For goodness sake, call them and complain! The reporters don't tell you what you expect. I think the lot should be sacked with immediate effect. Perhaps, while you're at it, you could also suggest that you are the man for the job.

 

Reporters ask questions, you ask questions. I am convinced that yours are better.

 

Roland

[mike777]

I note on the news channel just now they asked what does Hezbollah and Iran and Syria want.  Again they danced around the issue but no said or even implied the total destruction of Israel.

Why don't you call your news channel and ask them to tell it every time you turn on the telly? Or do you expect us to do it for you?

 

A person like yourself who doesn't know what Hamas and Hezbollah stand for should actually have it turned on 24/7. A few hours ago I told you, and now you think this forum is a good place to tell that you are unhappy with your news channel?

 

For goodness sake, call them and complain! The reporters don't tell you what you expect. I think the lot should be sacked with immediate effect. Perhaps, while you're at it, you could also suggest that you are the man for the job.

 

Reporters ask questions, you ask questions. I am convinced that yours are better.

 

Roland

Again you seem to miss my point that I thought was clear but then you think I do not know who hammas and hezbollah is. I am not sure why, I never said I did not.

 

I do know their leaders, what they stand for and have for more than 20 years gee whiz..I made that clear.

 

I just asked what do they want and why does not Israel give it to them but it seems many do not even know who "they" are who is fighting Israel and what "they" want.

 

See the Danish press release for starters(lets chat more is basically all it says, God forbid they send money for them to buy bullets), I do know some Danish citizens seem to know. I give the Danish a hard time but as I say over and over again this is the world response, not just Danish.

You seem to think I am complaining about my local newstation again you have completely missed what I am saying but will just stop now.

[luke warm]

I just asked what do they want and why does not Israel give it to them but it seems many do not even know who "they" are who is fighting Israel and what "they" want.

ok mike, i guess i'll clue you in as to what "they" want... they want every jew, man woman and child, destroyed... they want the nation of israel to be a bloody spot in the desert... as to why israel doesn't just give them what they want ... beats the hell outta me

[mike777]

Thanks Jimmy, I can only repeat if this is true, the World's response is

1) yawn

2) stop Israel

3) Mostly Israel is too blame.

4) let's chat..negotiate, etc.

5) I fail to see the response from almost the whole world is how can we help you Israel? How can we support you, what can we do to assist? Millions want to kill off all the Zionists and the world yawns and says boy it is hot this summer.

6) I fail to even see Bush say..Israel how can we assist you? Millions trying to kill you off, yawn. Last I checked Hezbollah has 1.2 million members and tens of millions giving it moral support.

7) Even more shocking to me are the statements coming out of the Vatican.

 

 

Of course if Jimmy is wrong please ignore all of the above.

 

 

As a side note I love hearing about all the Americans who have no emergency plans to leave and blame our embassy. Did they think they were living in downtown London or Chicago? Now all of us taxpayers got to pay for them to leave, great........

[helene_t]

What do the Muslim/Arabs/Iran want from Israel

Moslems are probably as diverse as christians/budhists/atheists/satanists/Elvis-fans/etc. but I suppose that in general, they want peace, money, sex, nice weather etc. just like other humans.

 

why does not Israel just give it to them

Looking for a job? Maybe you should consider becoming a military advicer for the Israeli government. Because what you suggest might be a really good idea. Americans won the Afganastin war by bomming the country with dollar bills. The Chinese were very succesful in pursuading American prisoners-of-war to cooperate during the Korean war, not by torturing them but by giving them good food. The Soviets won the Stalingrad battle by spreading the rumor that German soldiers who let themselves capture would get free vodka and free access to the Soviet military brothels. (It may not be strictly true but it's a good story).

 

So you can win a war by being nice to the enemy. I think both Jesus and Konfutse have been quoted for saying something like that.

[helene_t]

3) Mostly Israel is too blame.

Of course. Israel has no oil. And the Jewish minority in Western Europe is too small and too civilized to cause any troubles. So why should we give a sh* for the Jews?

 

Oh, you thought politics was based on moral? Dream on.

[mike777]

Finally heard one person on tv say that the people of Lebanon had a choice and they chose to have nice lives in Northern Lebanon rather than fight in the South. The citizens had a choice and they choose peace at all costs rather than raising a fighting army to defend their own country. That choice had consquences, not all meaning peace!

 

The debate rages on, peace at all costs, or is their a price worth sending yourself and your family out to fight for?

[luke warm]

The debate rages on, peace at all costs, or is their a price worth sending yourself and your family out to fight for?

not when someone else will do it for you... maybe it's more cost effective that way, who knows? lives are still lost, but maybe not as many

[mike777]

One wonders about Lebanon, again on the news they interviewed people in Northen Lebanon who were not Shia. They all seemed to care less about Israel, Hezballoh and what happens to their country. They did not seem ready to join the army and fight or give up their nightclubs and fancy cars in support of the country.

They even brought up the fact of no guilt feelings on the part of these citizens. So much for innocence...

 

Who in fact really seems to care about Lebanon and do something other than party/chat for it? One gets the impression they are not willing to fight to the death for their own country?

[hrothgar]

One wonders about Lebanon, again on the news they interviewed people in Northen Lebanon who were not Shia. They all seemed to care less about Israel, Hezballoh and what happens to their country. They did not seem ready to join the army and fight or give up their nightclubs and fancy cars in support of the country.

They even brought up the fact of no guilt feelings on the part of these citizens. So much for innocence...

 

Who in fact really seems to care about Lebanon and do something other than party/chat for it? One gets the impression they are not willing to fight to the death for their own country?

Maybe they just don't want to die...

 

Lebanon went through a VERY brutal civil war, with lots of atrocities committed by all the various sides. What option did the Lebanese people have to disarm Hezbollah? Start up the civil war once again and destroy the economy?

 

I guess the fact that Lebanese civilians weren't willing to commit suicide justifies the Israeli's murdering them...

[mike777]

It seems they picked their fancy nightclubs and cars over a civil war. Yes they had a choice...devote the fight to a civil war or accept Hezzabollah and have an economy...that means they are pragmatic and made a choice that choice had consquences....

 

The choice was never not die or have a war......that is what people seem to forgot.

 

The choice was not civil war or peace and prosperity, it was civil war now and settle the issue one way or the other or have their children fight the war later.

It is a false argument, nice economy and live or civil war..that was really never their options in the long run. The options were war now or war later.

[hrothgar]

It is a false argument, nice economy and live or civil war..that was really never their options in the long run. The options were war now or war later.

If the US actually gave a damn about any of the Arabs they might have had a better choice. Sadly, we're expediting the delivery of jet fuel and cluster bombs so the Israelis can continue to bomb population centers.

 

Interesting that the Israeli's just deliberately took out a UN observation post. Guess they don't want any witnesses when things get really ugly. Given that they're using white phosphorus against civilians and targeting ambulences its somewhat troublesome speculating what they need to conceal.

[luke warm]

again, imagine israel pulls all troops back inside its border, then destroys all its weapons saying it feels this is the only way for the region to live in peace.. what would happen?

 

imagine the taliban, hezbollah, hamas, et al, destroy all *their* weapons, saying it's the only way the region will ever live in peace... what would happen?

 

if your answers are honest, in the first example israel would be very quickly destroyed... in the second, there would be peace (at least until the next terrorist organization formed)... if that's true, who is ultimately responsible for the bloodshed?

[Winstonm]

The thing I observe so much in this region is something I believe sociologists term tribalism. It seems nationalism is relegated to second place behind the group of which you belong. In Iraq we have the shiites, the sunis, and the kirds. I do not know the Lebanon tribes but they must be similarly divided.

 

It seems this part of the world has always been so - even Peter O'Toole had trouble getting the tribes to fight as one nation of Arabia, and that was just a movie. Imagine the real thing.

 

Maybe this is what is saving Israel - that each country is so fragmented that their cannot be a consensus retaliatory response. If a country sends their army against Israel, who would be home to fight the insurrection that would occur within the country?

[Winstonm]

again, imagine israel pulls all troops back inside its border, then destroys all its weapons saying it feels this is the only way for the region to live in peace.. what would happen?

 

imagine the taliban, hezbollah, hamas, et al, destroy all *their* weapons, saying it's the only way the region will ever live in peace... what would happen?

 

if your answers are honest, in the first example israel would be very quickly destroyed... in the second, there would be peace (at least until the next terrorist organization formed)... if that's true, who is ultimately responsible for the bloodshed?

That's fine as far as it goes, but Jimmy what about this?

 

Suppose a group of nomadic peoples invaded and took over Louisiana, forcing all the citizens to take up residency in other nearby states, meanwhile losing their homes, their cars, their jobs, their way of life. Then the group who took over La. threw down their arms and said, O.K. le't have peace now. Would you still feel the same way?

[hrothgar]

The thing I observe so much in this region is something I believe sociologists term tribalism.  It seems nationalism is relegated to second place behind the group of which you belong.  In Iraq we have the shiites, the sunis, and the kirds.  I do not know the Lebanon tribes but they must be similarly divided.

There is some truth to waht you are saying... "Nationalism" is often less significant than religious/clan/tribal identity.

 

Just to be clear:

 

The Sunni and the Shia are two different religious sects... There are also a number of different splinter groups (Allawi, Druze, Sufis, etc)

 

You also have differents tribes (in most cases tribes belong to a single sect)

 

Finally, you have ethnic groups. The Kurds are an ethnic group, as are the Turkmen yada, yada, yada

[mikeh]

What do Hamas and Hezbollah want?

 

My guess is that their wants are somewhat different, reflecting their different times and circumstances of origin. It is a mistake to lump them together.

 

Hamas formed the legitimate government of the Palestinian State. A triumph for democracy, one would have hoped.

 

Its leaders could not publicly back down from the radicalism that enabled it to grow and to differentiate itself from the older, more corrupt PLO. One of its main leaders, imprisoned in an Israeli jail, has worked out a tentative plan for an informal alliance with Fatah, and that plan tacitly recogonizes Israel's right to exist. To expect more than that from any Palestinian political group is probably unrealistic... give that approach a few years.. maybe a generation or two.. and maybe the next generation of leaders will be able to further lessen the overt threats.

 

By the way, for those who say that Hamas could and should have publicly abandoned a key platform in their manifesto, consider how western politicians also tend to publicly proclaim fervent belief in a certain position (in order to rally their 'base') while making absolutely sure that nothing gets done. The Republican party could have overriden Roe v Wade, for example, but no serious Republican politician wants that to happen. Roe v Wade keeps the money flowing in from the religious right and keeps the voters oming out to vote... outlawing abortion would have precisely the opposite effect... the religious right would become more complacent as the main source of their outrage was removed while pro-choice forces would become massively energized.

 

Israel could have enhanced that prospect by tacitly allowing Hamas a chance to do that which it pledged itself to do internally... clean up the corruption and begin to build an economy. Could they have done it? Who knows. But the reality is that Israel, backed by the US, cut off the supply of funds needed to keep even their rudimentary state operating.

 

Yes, Hamas was 'pledged' to the destruction of Israel, but does anyone really think that they would have done anything about it?

 

Yes, Hamas is a 'terrorist' group by some definitions, altho (as far as I know) they have never gone beyond attacks on Israelis... In saying that, I am not condoning nor approving of those attacks, but trying to point out that there is a disturbing trend, especially among Americans, of lumping a lot of disparate people into the 'terrorist' camp and then treating them as if they all report to or obey Osama bin Laden. In actuality, my understanding is that, for example, Hezbollah has publicly proclaimed that they do not see the US as their enemy, and they come predominantly from the opposite side of the Shia/Sunni divide within Islam.

 

Hezbollah is in many ways similar to Hamas and has attempted, with success, to participate in the democratic process in Lebanon. We can debate all we want about the legitimacy of the invasion of Lebanon by Israel 20+ years ago, but the reality is that that invasion, along with the massacres carried out by Israeli supported militia, either created Hezbollah or at least led to its growth and power.

 

If any of us were Palestinian or Southern, non-Christain Lebanese, I suspect that we would see Israel in a light far different that is shone on it by western media.

 

I repeat: this is not to condone the provocations issued by either organization. But provocation and response have gone on for so many years, that it is foolish to say that any single action now is an originator of a response.. whatever action we choose has been preceded by tit-for-tat for decades.

 

And, one final point so often overlooked by those who condemn any group that the US government labels as terrorists, both Israel and the USA were founded by people who mounted armed campaigns against lawful authority in order to overthrow such authority. I do not know enough about the American Revolution to know if the founding fathers, or their followers, committed acts that, had they lost, would now be viewed as acts of terrorism, but I do know enough about the founding of Israel to state that proposition with conviction. The founders of the Israeli state, many of whom went on to serve in government and to become famous and revered (at least in Israel) were gunmen, assassins and bombers who blew up police stations, ambushed soldiers and police officers and generally acted as terrorists in a succesful campaign to persuade the Mandated Power to leave... with the almost immediate outcome of the highly-encouraged, if not forced, removal of a large proportion of the Palestinian population... a population that could trace its use and ownership of lands back for hundreds of years... forced to go to live, for almost 60 years now (no end in sight) in refugee camps.

 

So todays terrorist may be tomorrow's founding father.... history is written by the winner.

 

Is this a good thing? No. Would the world be better if Hamas and Hezbollah renounced violence? Yes. Is Israel morally perfect? No.. Is my post overly simplistic? Yes.. but whose isn't... who can truly analyze what's going on and has gone on in anything less than a massive book.

[luke warm]

Suppose a group of nomadic peoples invaded and took over Louisiana, forcing all the citizens to take up residency in other nearby states, meanwhile losing their homes, their cars, their jobs, their way of life.  Then the group who took over La. threw down their arms and said, O.K. le't have peace now.  Would you still feel the same way?

well in the case of israel, a little history and context might be in order... the u.n. divided the land into 2 sections and gave half to israel as a homeland... some in the area objected, and 5 countries attacked the new state... as a result, israel (who by all accounts would have been happy with what they received) gained a substantially larger bit of land

 

there has always, it seems, been strife in that area and always will be... this lasts until finally (if one believes as i do) almost all countries on earth join together to wage war against israel... i hope the u.s. is not a part of that pact, but i don't know for sure... this war also will result in failure for the aggressors, but not in the way we might think :)

[Winstonm]

Suppose a group of nomadic peoples invaded and took over Louisiana, forcing all the citizens to take up residency in other nearby states, meanwhile losing their homes, their cars, their jobs, their way of life.  Then the group who took over La. threw down their arms and said, O.K. le't have peace now.  Would you still feel the same way?

well in the case of israel, a little history and context might be in order... the u.n. divided the land into 2 sections and gave half to israel as a homeland... some in the area objected, and 5 countries attacked the new state... as a result, israel (who by all accounts would have been happy with what they received) gained a substantially larger bit of land

 

there has always, it seems, been strife in that area and always will be... this lasts until finally (if one believes as i do) almost all countries on earth join together to wage war against israel... i hope the u.s. is not a part of that pact, but i don't know for sure... this war also will result in failure for the aggressors, but not in the way we might think :)

Jimmy. Please don't confuse me with the facts. My mind is made up. :P However, I'm not so sure it was this cut and dried. I'm not a history buff and wasn't around when this occurred, but from what I understand there was quite a lot of conflict before the division, and the pre-Israelites were doing their fare share of terrorist acts against Palestine. The U.N. measure was an attempt to instill peace and order in the region - and worked as well as most U.N. operations. :P

[hrothgar]

Jimmy. Please don't confuse me with the facts.

Jimmy is quoting from the book of Revelations as if it were true and you're accusing him of confusing you with "facts"....

[Winstonm]

Jimmy is quoting from the book of Revelations as if it were true and you're accusing him of confusing you with "facts"....

 

 

 

I knew that....just the part about the U.N. separating the land...fact?

[luke warm]

Jimmy is quoting from the book of Revelations as if it were true and you're accusing him of confusing you with "facts"....

I knew that....just the part about the U.N. separating the land...fact?

i just looked here, and while i didn't go into detail that's kinda what happened... and yes, there was already fighting in the area

[mike777]

From Fouad Siniora Prime Minister of Lebanon.

 

"...root causes of this war-Israeli occupation of Lebanese territories and its perennial threat to Lebanon security...

 

...A political solution cannot, however, be implemented as long as Israel continues to occupy Arab land in Lebanon, Gaza, the West Bank and the Syrian Golan Heights and as long as it wages war on innocent people in Lebanon and Palestine.....

 

 

...we demand an international inquiry into Israel's criminal actions in Lebanon and insist that Israel pay compensation for its wanton destruction...Israel responded by slaughtering more civilians in the town of Qana....."

[rona_]

Mike what would you like him to say? Lebanon is not a Muslim country. (Not yet anyway). The President is by constitution a Christian of the Maronite Sect and the Prime Minister a Sunni Muslim. They haven't had a census there for many years but the Muslims are definitely the majority of the population. Siniora is trying to find a way to peace in his country without starting another civil war.

[mike777]

Mike what would you like him to say?  Lebanon is not a Muslim country. (Not yet anyway). The President is by constitution a Christian of the Maronite Sect and the Prime Minister a Sunni Muslim. They haven't had  a census there for many years but the Muslims are definitely the majority of the population. Siniora is trying to find a way to peace in his country without starting another civil war.

So you argue for appeasement, that is your point? Peace at all costs?

Create a country where you live in fear of saying what you really mean, that is your point? This sounds just like a argument for living in fear your whole life.

 

Again a false dichotomy the choice is not between Peace or War; it is between War now or war later and stick your head in the sand for now....