Tumbling house of cards or not?

[Wackojack]

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=saq974hqj76d7643c&s=sk2h4dakqj2ca8542]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1♦ 1♠

2♣ 3♦

4NT 6♣

6♦ p

Opps passing throughout

Playing 1340 I thought that 6♣ probably showed a club void and 1 ace[/hv]

 

The bidding was a bit of a blunt instrument, but I couldn't see how to explore more scientifically

 

We were playing in the main club against a friendly expert pair who was known by my partner. During the play I did take my time and it must have seemed slow to the table and to the many kibs. Nevertheless, In more serious bridge I have liked to have known about opps overcalls and carding methods. I will take you through my thinking:

 

West led ♥A, east playing the 10, and then switched to ♦10, east following to my ♦A. My first thought was the best line would be 3 club ruffs to add to the 9 top tricks. So I played a small club, ruffing in dummy with east and west playing the 3 and 6 respectively. I next played a small heart from dummy (I know.... should have played the queen.... you might get lucky and it can't cost) and ruffed with 2 in hand. Next another low club, ruffing in dummy with west-east playing 9 and 7. Next a bad slip. I should play another heart from dummy to ruff in hand which would reveal the heart position. I didn't because I already had a fixed view that west had 6 hearts. I was also pre-occupied with the thought that west might have 2 clubs and would over ruff my 3rd club. I then realised that if this were so, I didn't need to ruff a 3rd club because east would then control clubs and spades and if I drew trumps east would be squeezed. So accordingly I played dummy's last trump..... Was this thinking a house of cards to come tumbling down? Anything to add on bidding and play?

[bid_em_up]

I didn't because I already had a fixed view that west had 6 hearts.

 

Anything to add on bidding and play?

Just something to add to your thinking.

 

If west has 6 hearts headed by the AK, surely you would have heard something from him over 1♦, either 1♥ or 2♥ (or even 3/4♥!!). Therefore, it is highly unlikely that this is his holding.

[mike777]

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=saq974hqj76d7643c&s=sk2h4dakqj2ca8542]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1♦ 1♠

2♣ 3♦

4NT 6♣

6♦ p

Opps passing throughout

Playing 1340 I thought that 6♣ probably showed a club void and 1 ace[/hv]

 

The bidding was a bit of a blunt instrument, but I couldn't see how to explore more scientifically

 

We were playing in the main club against a friendly expert pair who was known by my partner. During the play I did take my time and it must have seemed slow to the table and to the many kibs. Nevertheless, In more serious bridge I have liked to have known about opps overcalls and carding methods. I will take you through my thinking:

 

West led ♥A, east playing the 10, and then switched to ♦10, east following to my ♦A. My first thought was the best line would be 3 club ruffs to add to the 9 top tricks. So I played a small club, ruffing in dummy with east and west playing the 3 and 6 respectively. I next played a small heart from dummy (I know.... should have played the queen.... you might get lucky and it can't cost) and ruffed with 2 in hand. Next another low club, ruffing in dummy with west-east playing 9 and 7. Next a bad slip. I should play another heart from dummy to ruff in hand which would reveal the heart position. I didn't because I already had a fixed view that west had 6 hearts. I was also pre-occupied with the thought that west might have 2 clubs and would over ruff my 3rd club. I then realised that if this were so, I didn't need to ruff a 3rd club because east would then control clubs and spades and if I drew trumps east would be squeezed. So accordingly I played dummy's last trump..... Was this thinking a house of cards to come tumbling down? Anything to add on bidding and play?

Great hand post. You may wish to discuss with partner when they should show a void in response to rkc.

 

One suggestion is to almost never show a void and to never show a void in partner's long bid suit as here.

 

Whatever you agree on you can test it out and see how it works out.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

first of all, 3D could have been passed,

i.e. 3D is no option with the north hand,

since you certainly will have a play for 5D.

 

Also South can still have a 3 card spade suit,

but after 3D the spade fit gets lost.

Even a heart fit is still possible.

 

=> 4th suit was invented to solve the above

problems.

 

1D - 1S

2C - 2H (1)

3H (2) - 4D (3)

4NT(4) - ??? (5)

6D (6)

 

(1) 4th suit, inv.+

(2) acceping the inv., denying a full heart stopper,

denying 3 card spade support

asking partner to clarify (half stopper, ...

if 4th suit was game forcing, 3C is certainly better,

showing 5-5

(3) fit, forward going

(4) all suits under control

(5) what ever,as long as you show one Key card,

one option would be 6D

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Wackojack]

Hi,

 

first of all, 3D could have been passed,

i.e. 3D is no option with the north hand,

since you certainly will have a play for 5D.

 

Also South can still have a 3 card spade suit,

but after 3D the spade fit gets lost.

Even a heart fit is still possible.

 

=> 4th suit was invented to solve the above

problems.

 

1D      -  1S

2C      -  2H (1)

3H  (2) -  4D (3)

4NT(4) -  ??? (5)

6D  (6)

 

(1) 4th suit, inv.+

(2) acceping the inv., denying a full heart stopper,

    denying 3 card spade support

    asking partner to clarify (half stopper, ...

    if 4th suit was game forcing, 3C is certainly better,

    showing 5-5

(3) fit, forward going

(4) all suits under control

(5) what ever,as long as you show one Key card,

    one option would be 6D

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

I am used to the style of raising 4th suit with 4 cards. So in my book, partner would be showing a weak 0454 after 1♦-1♠-2♣-2♥-3♥. Had my partner bid 2♥ the 4th suit I would have bid 3♣ and now my partner could bid 3♦ to show the stronger diamond raise. I am not sure about the merits of a 4th suit bid on this hand. I think I prefer a 4♦ bid after my 2♣, although the diamonds are weak. It come down to how you differentiate these sequences:

1. 1d-1s-2c-2h-3c-3d

2. 1d-1s-2c-2h-3c-4d

3. 1d-1s-2c-4d

4. 1d-1s-2c-5d

If 4th suit forcing is played as a game force, then doesn't sequence 3 describe the hand best?

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

I am used to the style of raising 4th suit with 4 cards. So in my book, partner would be showing a weak 0454 after 1♦-1♠-2♣-2♥-3♥. Had my partner bid 2♥ the 4th suit I would have bid 3♣ and now my partner could bid 3♦ to show the stronger diamond raise. I am not sure about the merits of a 4th suit bid on this hand. I think I prefer a 4♦ bid after my 2♣, although the diamonds are weak. It come down to how you differentiate these sequences:

1. 1d-1s-2c-2h-3c-3d

2. 1d-1s-2c-2h-3c-4d

3. 1d-1s-2c-4d

4. 1d-1s-2c-5d

If 4th suit forcing is played as a game force, then doesn't sequence 3 describe the hand best?

Hi,

 

raising the 4th suit is always interesting.

The first question to answer, is the 4th suit

game forcing?

If no, the raise of the 4th suit shows add. values,

if yes, this does not need to be.

 

The reason, why I prefer 2H over 4D is,

responder is still looking for a spade fit,

your most likely game ... and one needs

only 10 tricks.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Wackojack]

Quote: "The reason, why I prefer 2H over 4D is,

responder is still looking for a spade fit,

your most likely game ... and one needs

only 10 tricks."

 

The crunch with raising to 4d is with a 3154 distribution. Not a problem with a min hand.... I would not rebid 2c. The bidding would go:

1d-1s

2s

With a stronger hand, but not sufficient to bid 3c, it is more problematic. So After:

1d-1s

2c-4d

4s

Would this be taken as 3 card spade support? I think it should.

1d-1s

2c-4d

4h-4s

Can 4s be passed? I agree that we are now in a murky area.

[P_Marlowe]

Quote: "The reason, why I prefer 2H over 4D is,

responder is still looking for a spade fit,

your most likely game ... and one needs

only 10 tricks."

 

The crunch with raising to 4d is with a 3154 distribution.  Not a problem with a min hand.... I would not rebid 2c.  The bidding would go:

1d-1s

2s

I am not a fan of 3 card raises, but if this is your style, I wont argue,

they have their reason, ... I just dont like them.

With a stronger hand, but not sufficient to bid 3c, it is more problematic.  So After:

1d-1s

2c-4d

4s

4S is cue bid, forward going, showing a top honor, 4D was already

game forcing, and since the space below 5D is small, opener should

show controls.

Would this be taken as 3 card spade support?  I think it should.

1d-1s

2c-4d

4h-4s

Can 4s be passed? I agree that we are now in a murky area.

Again 4S, and for that matter 4H as well, is a cue, and I dont think

4S can be passed.

For all opener knows, reponder may hold just a 4 card suit, 4S -1,

when 6D is making, is a likely possibility.

 

After the 4D raise, the partnership is committed to diamonds.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Finch]

On the auction you could have been off two aces or two top hearts from West's point of view, so I don't read much into the HA lead other than that West has the HA. The trump switch is interesting, either he must have trusted you to have a heart control or they were playing reverse count and he started with 5 of them.

 

Ruffing 3 clubs in dummy looks like a sensible approach once everyone has followed to one round of trumps. So trump, club ruff, heart ruff, club ruff.... at this point I would have played a spade to the king and ruffed another club, only going off if clubs were initially 6-2. If they were 6-2 then someone had KQJ10xx, possibly together with a heart honour, and managed to avoid bidding them at love all. (I come to hand on a spade rather than a heart ruff to avoid a third club or singleton spade being discarded, but as you say another heart ruff might bring down the king and then you are safe so I think it's quite close).

 

Instead of this you played for a squeeze, but this gains over 3 club ruffs only when someone has 6 clubs and 4 spades, or when spades are 3-3 and clubs 6-2.

 

I don't think you were particularly silly, but ruffing 3 clubs in dummy feels like a better line.

 

There's a third possible line, which is to find out early if trumps are 2-2: win the diamond switch, ruff a club, play a diamond to hand. If everyone follows to the second trump you immediately play on spades making if spades are 4-2 or (failing that) the HK is on your right. If diamonds are 3-1 you ruff another club, ruff a heart and fall back on a black suit squeeze (or LHO having both majors) or spades 3-3.

[Wackojack]

Quote"Just something to add to your thinking.

 

If west has 6 hearts headed by the AK, surely you would have heard something from him over 1♦, either 1♥ or 2♥ (or even 3/4♥!!). Therefore, it is highly unlikely that this is his holding."

 

Yes that did cross my mind at the table. Or could he be leading from AKxxx or an unsupported ace. That is why I said I would like to have known more about their overcalling and carding methods and why I think it was a bad error not ruff the 3rd heart and discover the heart distribution.

 

I did consider another line of play which was to establish a 4th spade trick assuming a 4-2 break..... but that looked very tricky if diamonds split 3-1. With these multiple choices I find it very difficult to work out the best line at the table ... even taking my time. My head was spinning.

 

I might as well reveal now that LHO had:

85

AKxxxx

108

J93

 

So just about any reasonable line of play would work including mine, when RHO was squeezed in clubs and spades.