inquiry Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 Erm, Ben, I think we all know that those up/downgrades don't apply in this auction. But that's precisely why Richard suggests it as a beginning (or at least, that's why I'd suggest it). It's not a question of understanding ZAR points here so much as a question of teaching style. While there maybe method to Richard's suggest approach, I suggest you re-read the post by Mike777. I will highlight the points of it for you.someone discuss what Zar points are, how to count full zar adjuted points I am not interested in yet another debate on whether they work or why they work or do not.Ben mentioning them but it seems many times he Counts Full Zar adjusted points and then downgrades them or upgrades them which make them seem even more mysteriousI understand opening, fit or nonfit, opener or responder, sac etc may all count them differently, I am only asking how not the why.From this, he is not asking, how well it works or where the break point is. In fact he is specially asking NOT to do that. He also is not asking how to count ZAR points, (he said "I udnerstand opening, fit or notfit, [but] opener or responder, sac etc may count them differently, I am only asking how, not why"). With this framework, what does Richard tell him to do? Look only at 1NT-2C-2M-3M auctions (how frequent is that one???). And see how to opener applies ZAR to decide to bid 4M or pass. Within that framework, there is no up or down adjusments. There is nothing Mike777 asked for. Will Richard example teach how to count ZAR points in opener hand. Sure, with zero corrections, but you can count ZAR in any hand, nothing special there about 1NT. Will Richard's example give any experience with adjustments up or down? Absolutely, totally not. His example was totally unresponsive to the orginal request. This I pointed out, and why. Glad he is not responding anymore, so now we can move forward with some examples of how to upgrade or down grade hands via ZAR points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 Since no guinea pig volunteered, I will use the first 25 hands I declared starting in Jan, 2006. I will start with the first five to keep the legnth managable. These are fairly unexciting but on most hands, ZAR or any other general evaluation methods work fairly painlessly, but if I go any other way than show "random hands" (here the first 25 someone (me) declared), there will be accusation of picking the hands. Hand one, I held: S K7 H J872 D J63 C K732 Partner opened 1D, next hand doubled. What is my ZAR points? I have 8 hcp, 2 controls, 10 distributional points. I can add one for the diamond JACK although I am not certain we have a diamond fit. So I have 21 ZARS. Partner has in theory, 26 plus. Even if she is minimum, we will have around 47 ZARS which is around 3 level being safe (47 is minimum for 3 level, so try to stay off it if that is the limit). I bid 1H. Partner raised to 2H and the next hand bid 2S. Since hearts is “my suit”, I get no points for the heart jack. Since I have the four trumps promised, I get no point for the doubleton spade. So my hand stays at 21 ZARS. Partner will not have 31 ZARS for sure, so no 52. So I am done. On this hand, partner balanced back to 3H. The full hand was: IMP-1 Rain Dlr: North Board 40243 S A94 Vul: Both H AK3 elzearnh D KT952 sturwic S T32 C 94 S QJ865 H T654 H Q9 D Q84 inquiry D A7 C J85 S K7 C AQT6 H J872 D J63 C K732 East South West North elzearnh Rain sturwic inquiry 37.02 60.27 44.37 55.36 Pass Pass 1D Dbl 1H Pass 2H 2S Pass Pass 3H Pass Pass Pass ======================================= # Contr Ld Decl Tr Score Pts ======================================= 1 4DX S DA oguz63 11 910 12.00 2 4DX S S8 hacisuley10 710 9.60 3 2CX W D3 aliinan 6 500 6.27 4 3C W D3 nkatz2 5 400 4.13 5 1N N ST wzielak 11 210 -0.27 6 2SX W D3 sony2407 7 200 -0.33 7 1N S SJ fettah 10 180 -0.93 8 2D S SQ jcelh 11 150 -1.67 9 3H N S2 inquiry 9 140 -1.87 10 2D S S6 lopeski 10 130 -2.40 11 3D S SQ IrenePari10 130 -2.40 12 2D S SQ mila50 10 130 -2.40 13 1N N S2 anyar 8 120 -2.53 14 2D S S8 marso83 8 90 -3.20 15 1S W DJ 0zanza 7 -80 -7.00 16 1S W D3 alpilles 7 -80 -7.00 The second hand I declared was this one. I have 8 hcp, 3 controls, 15 distributional (6Sx2=12, 4C-1H = 3, 12+3=15). This is 26 ZAR points. The bidding was 2D on my left, partner doubled, RHO bid 2H. I have an opening hand, partner has an opening hand, I have two extra spades and a presumed spade fit, so I get two points for the singleton diamond for each extra trump. This is 29. Easy 4S bid. S AKJ932 H 2 D 96 C 8764 Four Spades turns out to be too much, as it can be defeated with proper defense (the trump squeeze almost works and will if West throws a club) if they switch to a diamond at trick two). IMP-1 Rain Dlr: East Board 40283 S Q86 Vul: Both H KQ65 elzearnh D 52 sturwic S T5 C AQJ2 S 74 H AJ7 H T9843 D KJT743 inquiry D AQ8 C T3 S AKJ932 C K95 H 2 D 96 C 8764 East South West North elzearnh Rain sturwic inquiry 2D Dbl 2H 4S Pass Pass Pass ======================================= # Contr Ld Decl Tr Score Pts ======================================= 1 4S N HA Melodykan12 680 10.33 2 4S N HA inquiry 11 650 9.93 3 4S N ST djitea 11 650 9.93 4 4S N HA Anne0 11 650 9.93 5 2S N CT PITTIG 10 170 1.87 6 3S N CT serifoglu10 170 1.87 7 3S N CT denkar 9 140 0.93 8 4S N C3 shannon 9 -100 -4.20 9 4S N D3 gosvig 9 -100 -4.20 10 4S N D3 DJF523 9 -100 -4.20 11 4S N CT steph37 9 -100 -4.20 12 4S N CT hsntuerker9 -100 -4.20 13 4S N CT ERDAL11 9 -100 -4.20 14 4S N D3 florinis 9 -100 -4.20 15 4S N H7 ctilden 9 -100 -4.20 16 5H N DJ january 6 -500 -11.20 Third hand I declared. 10 hcp (ignore singleton jack), 4 control, 13 distributional. 27 Zar points. With four spades, two more than I actually need in “theory.” So I have no problem opening 1D. West doubled and partner jumped to 3D limit raise. Think about 24 ZAR points. So opposite 24, I easily pass. Not rocket science. S 8762 H AQ7 D AT973 C J Full Hand was: IMP-1 Rain Dlr: North Board 40306 S A Vul: None H T964 marijke70 D QJ84 sturwic S T93 C Q973 S KQJ54 H KJ3 H 852 D K6 inquiry D 52 C AK854 S 8762 C T62 H AQ7 D AT973 C J East South West North marijke70 Rain sturwic inquiry 1D Dbl 3D Pass Pass Pass ======================================= # Contr Ld Decl Tr Score Pts ======================================= 1 3D N CA inquiry 10 130 4.13 2 3D N CA orlen07 10 130 4.13 3 2D N CA purshi 9 110 3.27 4 3S W DA robidgood 7 100 3.27 5 4SX W CJ michele14 9 100 3.27 6 4S W CJ kidcasey 9 50 1.80 7 3S W DA JOEWONG 8 50 1.80 8 3S W CJ anedim 8 50 1.80 9 Pa C2 caterin 0 0 0.33 10 3D N CK nalia 8 -50 -0.93 11 1N W D7 sofianne 7 -90 -2.00 12 3S W CJ peselek 9 -140 -3.47 13 3S W HA 903eagle 9 -140 -3.47 14 2S E DQ I-palooka 9 -140 -3.47 15 4D N CK harryrr 7 -150 -3.47 16 4DX N CK armando1 8 -300 -7.00 Fourth hand, is a ZAR monster despite its low hcp. I held, 12 hcp, 5 control pts, 15 distributional pts. This is 32 ZARS. I open 1H, bidding continues DBL to my left and partner redoubles. S AJ93 H AK8632 D 73 C 3 This is beginning to sound like a misfit auction, if partner is short in hearts, we might not go too high, and we might hammer them. My RHO bids 2C, and I pass for the time being (I like to play 2/3 doubles here, but with rain, I have no agreement). The bidding is passed back to partner, who jumps to 3H over the 2C. So now we have a fit, I can add 2 points for the club stiff and the extra heart. So now I have 34 points. Question is was 3H game force or invite? If invite, partner has mid 20’s. Say 25+32 = is only 57, which is well less than slam values. I know about the “super” fit in hearts, but I have no info on the degree of fit in any suits. If forcing, partner could have more than 26. I cuebid 3S, partner bids 4H, I figure it is game invite at best, so I pass. Note, if rain jumps to 3D over double, as fit jump, I know about her general strength (just less than GF) and fit, and that she has five diamonds to my two, so superfit calculations might become possible. But here, no way. MP-1 Rain Dlr: West Board 40308 S 84 Vul: Both H QJ7 marijke70 D AK654 sturwic S Q72 C J85 S KT65 H 954 H T D QT9 inquiry D J82 C AKQT S AJ93 C 97642 H AK8632 D 73 C 3 East South West North marijke70 Rain sturwic inquiry Pass 1H Dbl Rdbl 2C Pass Pass 3H Pass 3S Pass 4H Pass Pass Pass Let’s evaluate rain’s hand. 5332 gets 11 distributional pts. She has 11 hcp, but she needs to discount the club jack on the bidding, so make it 10. She has 3 control points and two fit points for the QJ of hearts. With only three hearts, she gets no bonus point for the doubleton heart. There is no way to diagnosis the superfit here, so she will take just her 11+10+3+2 for 26 Zars. So she should force to game in theory. ======================================= # Contr Ld Decl Tr Score Pts ======================================= 1 5CX E DK g ardasa 8 800 5.40 2 5CX E HQ tiro 8 800 5.40 3 4H N CQ WaltBon 11 650 1.53 4 4H N CA inquiry 11 650 1.53 5 4H N CA yaruyar 11 650 1.53 6 4H N CA samy 1 11 650 1.53 7 4H N CA gtusa 11 650 1.53 8 4H N CA rensch 11 650 1.53 9 4H N CA serifoglu11 650 1.53 10 4H N CA marisemm210 620 0.47 11 4H N CA cap7 10 620 0.47 12 4H N CA Pullela 10 620 0.47 13 4H N CA mgchat 10 620 0.47 14 4H N H4 TheCoach 10 620 0.47 15 4H N CA cecilik 9 -100 -11.93 16 4H N CA shannon 9 -100 -11.93 The fifth hand was: S JT3 H A9754 D 8 C KT95 My RHO passed, I have 8 hcp, 3 controls, 13 dp (distributional points from now on). This is only 24. An easy pass. LHO opened 1NT passed back to me. Against my better judgement, with distribution, I can’t stand it. I bid 2H. This is doubled and I play it there. No fit points here, not much of a story (other than I made 2Hx). IMP-1 Rain Dlr: West Board 40331 S A65 Vul: None H Q8 tapan D K932 sturwic S Q974 C J874 S K82 H KJ H T632 D AQJ6 inquiry D T754 C A32 S JT3 C Q6 H A9754 D 8 C KT95 East South West North tapan Rain sturwic inquiry Pass Pass 1NT Pass Pass 2H Dbl Pass Pass Pass ======================================= # Contr Ld Decl Tr Score Pts ======================================= 1 2HX N S4 inquiry 9 570 11.60 2 1N E C4 Kati1 6 50 1.93 3 1N E D2 rerlan 6 50 1.93 4 2S E H8 ARTGLAD 7 50 1.93 5 1N E D2 cafra33 6 50 1.93 6 1N E D2 suncha 6 50 1.93 7 Pa C2 ferty 0 0 0.53 8 1N E S5 brou2000 7 -90 -2.07 9 1N E D2 bandius 7 -90 -2.07 10 1N E C4 gabryg 7 -90 -2.07 11 1N E D2 ourson_ 7 -90 -2.07 12 1N E D2 Arab1 7 -90 -2.07 13 1N E D2 monaakl 7 -90 -2.07 14 1N E D2 fede80 7 -90 -2.07 15 2S S S8 gulcan20055 -150 -3.67 16 1N E D2 Paula191 9 -150 -3.67 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keylime Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 Many of you haven't realized this but I as well used Zar Points when I developed and played KLPV15. Here are my thoughts about Zar. 1. With Zar I felt that I was able to enter the auction much more freely as opener. I liked the fact I could in a limited bid method open light and get in there. However in a 2/1 setup Zar doesn't function very well UNLESS you're willing to drop the cornerstone of the approach: that a 2/1 is forcing to game. 2. Slam bidding with Zar was when mentally fresh a joy. When tired tho it was a grind at times. I feel at times my play suffered markedly. 3. I think Zar is beneficial to evaluation...if you have the mindset to manage it. Otherwise I prefer the 6421 scale which I currently use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted July 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 Ok thanks Ben I think I understand the basic Zar opening bid. Next though is what do the common responder bids show in Zarsingle raiseslimit raisesetc Also what are the levels need for partscores and games, slams, etc? thank you in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 Ok thanks Ben I think I understand the basic Zar opening bid. Next though is what do the common responder bids show in Zarsingle raiseslimit raisesetc Also what are the levels need for partscores and games, slams, etc? thank you in advance.Ok, if you are going to "convert" to ZAR points, keep in mind that 52 ZAR points is game. So a limit raise should be one where if partner has "extras" (more then minimum) he willl bid game. This is almost identical to the normal limit raise values times two. That is, if a normal limit raise is 11-12 hcp, the ZAR limit raise is 22 to 24 ZAR points (more or less). Partner with 25, 26, 27 ZARS might pass, with 28 he clearly will bid game. A constructive raise would be weaker. So you see, you can almost conder 1 HCP = 1 ZAR point for these raises. The main difference being the range is wider but the points are easier to come by... The range of the direct raise to 1H or 1S to 2H or 2S depends upon how strong your 1H or 2H bid can be. If you were playing a precision based system with strong bids going through 1C so 1M is capped at about 32 ZARs, you can see that a simple raise would have to have some substantial values. It takes 20 ZAR points (including fit) to have game opposite such a hand. If you could be be stronger for 1H/1S then it could be less. But of course, the upper limit is whatever is less than you limit raise. So if your limit raise is 22 to 24 ZARS (or 23 to 25 or 22 to 25), then the constuctive raise should be 19 or 18 in pinch to just less than the limit raise). If your upper limit is 21 ZARS for the constructive raise, then opener with less than 31 need not try for game. I tend to use the higher range for limit raise (23 to 25 ZARS) and use a constructive raise of 19 to 22. Zar suggest a different range. But to be fair, he has modified his system to make counting superfit much easier, and his 1M opening is limited to 30 ZARS and a 4 or 5 card suit. The use of ZAR points in the decision process is almost a 2 for 1 with hcp, but because distribution and fit points count so much, you willl find you will be making these bids on a lot less total hcp (but the total will be the same 2 to 1 ratio). Let'e examine a very few hands...[hv=d=e&v=n&s=sat6ht632da87cqt9]133|100|Scoring: IMPThree passes to partner who opens 1C in fourth seat. RHO ovecalls 1S, you double, and RHO bids 2S. Partner presses to 3H. What do you do?[/hv] How good is your hand? Two ACES and the queen of clubs in partners suit looks pretty good. 10HCP has to be close to a maiximum, right? Well, look at your ZAR points. 10 hcp, 4 cp, only 8 Dp. that is 22 ZAR points. For fit, you get one for the ten of hearts. This hand is not nearly as good as it would be if you ahd a doubleton diamond (gaining you 3 more zar points, two for DP, and one for ruffing value). I will not say bidding 4H is wrong, it just turns out bad if you do, or if your partner passes 2S. They make 2S, you are down one in 3H. Here is another one.. maybe I will not answer this one right away. [hv=d=e&v=n&s=sat6ht632da87cqt9]133|100|Scoring: IMPThree passes to partner who opens 1C in fourth seat. RHO ovecalls 1S, you double, and RHO bids 2S. Partner presses to 3H. What do you do?[/hv] [hv=d=e&v=n&s=sat6ht632da87cqt9]133|100|Scoring: IMPThree passes to partner who opens 1C in fourth seat. RHO ovecalls 1S, you double, and RHO bids 2S. Partner presses to 3H. What do you do?[/hv] This one is deceptively easy. First we have a super fit (9S). Second, partner started with at least 25 ZARS, and in support of you he will garner a few more, probably an honor in spades and certainly some ruffing value. You know about the minimum suit differential of 3 in hearts and 2 in the minors (partner with at least 9 cards in major has max of 4 in minors, you have 6). So there are some 5 superpoints on the table. Lets count yours. You have 7 hcp, you have 3 control point and 12 distributional points. That is 22. With 5 superfit points you actually have enough to bid game (22+5 plus partner 25 before any upgrades = 52). Close your eyes, bid game. The full hand? If invited would north have bid game? Only one table bid 4S that wasn't pushed there by overbiddign by EW. This was the table (true it was a little lucky hearts were 3-3, but spades could have been 2-2 also). IMP-50 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]Dlr: North Board 1937 [space]S AQ42 [space] [space] [space]Vul: E-W [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]H T9865 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]D K [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] S J93 [space] [space] [space] C A75 [space] [space] [space] S 7 [space] [space] [space] [space] H J42 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] H KQ7 [space] [space] [space] D AQ82 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]D J654 [space] [space] [space] C JT4 [space] [space] [space] S KT865 [space] [space] C KQ962 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]H A3 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]D T973 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]C 83 [space] [space] [space] [space] 15-Dec-05 [space]1:45:50 PM First [space]1:18:00 PM, Last [space]1:49:55 PM West [space] [space] [space] North [space] [space] [space]East [space] [space] [space] South [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] 1H [space] [space] [space] [space] Pass [space] [space] [space] 1S [space] [space] [space] [space] Pass [space] [space] [space] 4S [space] [space] [space] [space] Pass [space] [space] [space] Pass [space] [space] [space] Pass [space] [space] [space] Opening lead: CJ [space] [space]Result: Made 4 Score: 420 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]Points: 5.73 [space] ======================================= [space]# Contr [space] Ld [space]Decl [space] [space] Tr [space]Score [space] Pts ======================================= [space]1 4S [space] [space]S CJ [space]10 [space] 420 [space] 5.73 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]2 4S [space] [space]S S3 [space]10 [space] 420 [space] 5.73 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]3 4S [space] [space]S CJ [space]10 [space] 420 [space] 5.73 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]4 4S [space] [space]S CJ [space]10 [space] 420 [space] 5.73 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]5 3CX [space] W DK [space]8 [space] 200 [space] 0.20 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]6 3C [space] [space]E HA [space] 7 [space] 200 [space] 0.20 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]7 2S [space] [space]S CJ [space]10 [space] 170 [space]-0.40 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]8 3S [space] [space]S CJ [space]10 [space] 170 [space]-0.40 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]9 2S [space] [space]S C4 [space]10 [space] 170 [space]-0.40 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] 10 2S [space] [space]S DA 10 [space] 170 [space]-0.40 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] 11 3S [space] [space]S CJ [space]10 [space] 170 [space]-0.40 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] 12 2S [space] [space]S CJ [space]10 [space] 170 [space]-0.40 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] 13 3S [space] [space]S CJ [space] 9 [space] 140 [space]-1.47 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] 14 4S [space] [space]S CJ [space] 9 [space] -50 [space]-6.07 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] 15 4S [space] [space]S CJ [space] 9 [space] -50 [space]-6.07 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] 16 4SX [space] N HQ [space]9 [space]-100 [space]-7.33 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] ======================================= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 I don't actually use Zars but I did look at them for a while. If I remember, a handy rule of thumb for converting a Zar count for a single hand to a "standard" count is "subtract 8 then multiply by 2/3". So 26 Zars (a minimum opening bid corresponds to 12 standard points etc To convert two hands' combined Zars to standard subtract 16 and multiply by 2/3. This will give approximate Zar values for various levels of contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 I don't actually use Zars but I did look at them for a while. If I remember, a handy rule of thumb for converting a Zar count for a single hand to a "standard" count is "subtract 8 then multiply by 2/3". So 26 Zars (a minimum opening bid corresponds to 12 standard points etc To convert two hands' combined Zars to standard subtract 16 and multiply by 2/3. This will give approximate Zar values for various levels of contract. If I had to do any multiplication or division, that would be it for me... welll divide by 2 or multiple by 2 i guess is easy enough.. this is why I tip 20%.. .instead of 15%... it is easier for me to mulitply by 2 and move a decimal point.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 More on Zar evaluation and "standard" raises in response to mike's latest request. [hv=s=sq92ha983dk96cq42]133|100|Using ZAR's you hear your partner open 1♠ in first seat. How do you evaluate this hand? A limit rasie with three card support? A balanced hand? A good constructive raise? EricK suggested counting you HCP, subtract 16 and then multiply by 2/3. I think he meant add 16 then multiply by 2/3 to get ZARs, so if you did that.. 11+16 = 27 * 2/3 = 18. On this hand, which is actually a bad example, that is short. South has 11 hcp, 3 control points, and the minimum 8 DP for a total of 22. He can get a bonus point for the spade queen to raise it to 23. If partner opened a hand with 29 ZARs, you might have game if all your points are working. [/hv] So what do you bid? I mentioned earlier that for a "limit raise" I like to have 23 to 25 ZARS (this includes fit ZARS), but this hand is a "bad" 23. One or the side suit queens is likely to be wasted unless partner is strong, and if both or working, our limited 3 card fit might be a problem. Many "2/1" players down-graded 4333 hands and will make a contructive raise with "11 hcp". Zar players tend to do the same, as this hand indicates. The best solution is to bid a simple 2S. If partner has 29 or so ZARS before your raise, he is likely to bid again. 2♠ turned out to be the winner, as the field overbids to 4♠ (note, even if you make a limit raise, at least you will not bid 4♠ Board 5991 [space]S KJ874 [space] [space] Vul: E-W [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]H JT62 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]D AQ [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] S T53 [space] [space] [space] C J3 [space] [space] [space] [space]S A6 [space] [space] [space] [space] H 5 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] H KQ74 [space] [space] [space] D T72 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] D J8543 [space] [space] C AKT965 [space] [space]S Q92 [space] [space] [space] C 87 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]H A983 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]D K96 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]C Q42 [space] [space] [space] In an earlier thread, I discussed my 1H-1S-3S bid as it relates to ZAR, and said it applies equally as well (actually more so) to 1m-1M-3M. I use the jump to 3M to show a good 29 to 32 ZARs. Stronger, I bid another way. The reason is that ZAR allows you open very lightly. Some, of course view this as a detriment. Perhaps they are correct. But you need a way to slow down the auction. This allows 1m-1M-2M to do just that. As an added bonus, I frequently raise to the two level with three card support, so limiting the direct raise is very helpful with keeping partner from hoping for too much. The question becomes, will 3M to be too high when responder is light (or ultra light)? The answer so far seems no. Both opponents have passed and you have a fit. Even a light responder to 1m generally has 17 to 20 ZARS. So openers minimum of a good 29 gives you some degree of protection at the three level in your fit (17+29 = 46, one short of the ZAR count needed for "the three" level. Here is a BBO hand to illustrate the point of the limited 2M raise. [hv=d=n&n=sa963ht964dkjck32&s=sq7hk873dqt64cajt]133|200|Ok, norths hand is probably not much of an opening bid, but come on, we all know people who will open a hand with 11 hcp, two quick tricks. What does ZAR say, north has 11 hcp, 4 cp, 10 DP. That is 25 ZARS and he has a four card spade suit. Zar says you "CAN" open with 25 ZARs when holding spades. Rather or not you should with such weak long suits and so much of your values in the short suit is anohter question. Remember, Zar points are a guideline, you still need to apply your own judgement. But say, for the sake of argument you do open North 1C and south north bids a heart. [/hv]Now North's hand "zooms" to 27 ZARS, (one additional for the heart TEN, one additional for the doubleton diamond). Still, pretty pathetic, and your 2H raise says so. Notice if you had almost any kind of decent fit for partner and opened, your hand would have easily gone to 29 ZARS no problem (a hand with 26 zars and a singleton would likely qualify, all that is needed would be one heart honor). What about south? He has 12 hcp, 3 cp, 10 Dp, also for 25. The diamond queen and spade queen are of questionable value opposite a weak hand, and for the doubleton Queen, zar suggest subtracting a point. So North is down to 24. There is not much upgrade here, although north likes his club honors but partner hasn't promised a club suit yet, despite his opening bid. If partner is on a max (28 zars) you will creep up to 52 ZARS, which is just enough for game. But the poor heart spots, the questionable evaluation of one or both queens (unlikely both are worth something) suggest caution. Remember, two heart honors (including the ten) in norths hand plus a doubleton would have upgraded a typical 26 ZAR opener to 29. The lack of spots in hearts in norths hand and the simple raise (which also could be three card support), is a clear RED FLAG to South. So at the very most, north should invite game, and it is quite possible north should pass on this auction with this hand, I would playing these methods. On this hand three tables passed it out, and four tables bid game. At several of the tables that didn't pass it out, south opened in third chair or it would have been passed out. The majority took 9 tricks in hearts, although some took less, no one got 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blofeld Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 I think he meant add 16 then multiply by 2/3 to get ZARs, so if you did that.. 11+16 = 27 * 2/3 = 18. On this hand, which is actually a bad example, that is short Erick's suggestion, if used to convert HCP to ZARs (he gave it for ZARs to HCP, which is I think the more useful direction) tells you to multiply by 3/2 and add 8, here getting 11*3/2 + 8 = 16.5 + 8 = 24.5. This is a little higher than the actual total, but I think that's to be expected on 4333 hands where standard count makes no downward adjustments relative to say 4432 but ZAR does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 I think he meant add 16 then multiply by 2/3 to get ZARs, so if you did that.. 11+16 = 27 * 2/3 = 18. On this hand, which is actually a bad example, that is short Erick's suggestion, if used to convert HCP to ZARs (he gave it for ZARs to HCP, which is I think the more useful direction) tells you to multiply by 3/2 and add 8, here getting 11*3/2 + 8 = 16.5 + 8 = 24.5. This is a little higher than the actual total, but I think that's to be expected on 4333 hands where standard count makes no downward adjustments relative to say 4432 but ZAR does. Well.. anyway, I am not doing any of those conversion... It is not hard to count ZAR points. I suggest it is only very slightly harder than counting 4321 points... Lets see steps involved. By counting the following hand and taking two short cuts.... AxxxKJxxQxxx Standard 4321 1. Count 4 points for ACe2. Add 3 points for K and one for J3. Add 2 points for Q4. Add 2 points (or 1 point or 3 points, which ever you use) for the singleton Total, 12 points, four steps. ZAR. 1. Add six points for ACE (first short cut, instead of counting control points, just value aces as 6 -- 4 hcp and 2 control points)2. Add four points for K and one for jack (short cut, king = 3 hcp + 1 control pt)3. Add 2 points for the Queen4. Add 13 points for distribution (short cut, total cards in two long suits, plus difference between longest and shortest... that is 9 + 4 = 13. This always gives the same number as the ZARFUL way of multiplying your long suit by two, adding the second long, and then subtracting the shortest. For example 4333, adding two long suits is 7, and subtract short from long is 1, add that, it is 8. ZARFUL way is 4X2 = 8 plus 3-3 still = 8. I do it this way as I hate multiplying... ) Admittedly, the 4th step is slightly more complicated than adding whatever you do for singleton or voids or doubletons (if you do). But it really isn't THAT more complicated to get your starting ZARs. I find it amazing people think this way of counting points is soo much more complicated than the standard 4321 method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 The ZAR points for openings and limit raises seem reasonable, but I still think Ben's range for opener's jump rebid is a little off. He gives the example of: AxxxT9xxKJKxx This is really a staggeringly bad hand. Many of us would not open this hand. ZAR points indicates that this is 25 ZAR, borderline to open because of holding spades, and that's without devaluing the KJ-tight. Anyways, this atrocious opener is worth 27 ZAR once a heart fit is found. This creates the following question: suppose I have a reasonable ZAR opening 1m bid, partner responds 1M, and I have four card support for his major. What's my minimum number of ZAR points after adding the appropriate adjustments for our fit? Having a fit pretty much always seems to increase the ZAR valuation. Can I really have less than 27 now? In general it makes sense for raises to the two-level to have a slightly wider range than raises to the three level, because partner has more room to make game tries (and still stop at the three level when things don't work out). It seems like the ranges Ben's using, 1m-1M-2M is basically 27-28 ZAR (and 27 is probably rare if you really started with 26 ZAR and have 4-card support). Seems like too tight a range to me, and likely to get you too high when partner's minimum. For example: AxxxQTxxKxKxx If the preceding hand was 27 ZAR, how much is this one? We've changed the basically useless diamond jack to the heart queen (hey it's in the trump suit). This increases the value by 2 points (one because Q=2 and J=1, one because it's in the trump suit). So now we have 29 ZAR. Jump to 3♥? I don't think so. In standard (pre-ZAR) bidding, a balanced 12-14 is pretty much a minimum opening and normally raises to 2M when a 4-4 fit is found. Bidding much more aggressively than this on relatively flat hands seems over-aggressive to me. Trying to recalibrate for ZAR points, a typical balanced 12-14 with a fit after 1m-1♥ looks something like: AJxKxxxQxxxKx This evaluates to 13 hcp + 4 controls + 10 = 27 ZAR, then you add one for the doubleton and the heart honor. That's 29 ZAR. This should be a 2♥ bid, and not particuarly close to a 3♥ bid (another jack shouldn't push it over the top). So I'd estimate reasonable ranges for: 1m-1♥-2♥ = 27-31 ZAR3♥ = starts at 32 ZAR A minimum responding hand in standard looks something like 6 hcp and 4333, for a ZAR count around 15 (6 hcp + 8 for shape + 1 control). If you're 4432 (more common) it's a couple points stronger. So a game force probably requires around 35 ZAR points. I'd estimate: 1m - 1♥ - 2♥ = 27-31 ZAR3♥ = 32-34 ZARGF = 35+ ZAR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Some more examples: What does a 4432 hand need to qualify for a jump raise to 3M? Well we have 10 distribution points, and we're going to add one for the doubleton (that's 11). If we have two trump honors, we need to find 19 hcp + controls. So the following hand would qualify: AxxAQxxKJxxxx Basically you need a control rich 14 (or maybe 13) that includes top trump honors. Pushy but not ridiculous. How about 4441 hands? 11 distribution points plus 2 for the singleton once we find a fit. Again with two trump honors, we need to find 17 hcp + controls. So for example: AQxxAQxxxxxxx This is a maximum raise to 2. Adding another card anywhere would make it a raise to three. AxxxAxxxAxxxx This is a minimum raise to 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTired Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 I'd estimate: 1m - 1♥ - 2♥ = 27-31 ZAR3♥ = 32-34 ZARGF = 35+ ZAR Now we are getting somewhere: Translating 2/1 bidding to ZAR. Many more bids to go. Now for those that Love or Hate ZAR, you can go check a slew of hands that went 1m 1H 3H pass/4H in both ZAR and std and check1) How many in 3H were set and whether the other system would have bid only 2H2) How many stopped in 3H and made 3 when the other system got set in 4H3) How many stopped in 3H and made 4 when the other system bid 4HAnd the biggest question: 4) How many produced the same bidding with the same accuracy. #1, 2, and 3 determines how more/less accurate ZAR is. #4 determines whether it is worth it.Another question to answer: Is ZAR better, worse, equal to Std using expert or near expert judgement. That is, will ZAR help intermediate players achieve results on par wth experts using std? So should intermediates place more emphasis on judgement or learning the details of ZAR. Will experts gain from ZAR or will std with expert judgement achieve the same results? As you can surmise, I am too tired to try to determine these answers, but not so tired that I can't propose the questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 The ZAR points for openings and limit raises seem reasonable, but I still think Ben's range for opener's jump rebid is a little off. He gives the example of: AxxxT9xxKJKxx This is really a staggeringly bad hand. Many of us would not open this hand. ZAR points indicates that this is 25 ZAR, borderline to open because of holding spades, and that's without devaluing the KJ-tight. Anyways, this atrocious opener is worth 27 ZAR once a heart fit is found. This creates the following question: suppose I have a reasonable ZAR opening 1m bid, partner responds 1M, and I have four card support for his major. What's my minimum number of ZAR points after adding the appropriate adjustments for our fit? Having a fit pretty much always seems to increase the ZAR valuation. Can I really have less than 27 now? In general it makes sense for raises to the two-level to have a slightly wider range than raises to the three level, because partner has more room to make game tries (and still stop at the three level when things don't work out). It seems like the ranges Ben's using, 1m-1M-2M is basically 27-28 ZAR (and 27 is probably rare if you really started with 26 ZAR and have 4-card support). Seems like too tight a range to me, and likely to get you too high when partner's minimum. For example: AxxxQTxxKxKxx If the preceding hand was 27 ZAR, how much is this one? We've changed the basically useless diamond jack to the heart queen (hey it's in the trump suit). This increases the value by 2 points (one because Q=2 and J=1, one because it's in the trump suit). So now we have 29 ZAR. Jump to 3♥? I don't think so. In standard (pre-ZAR) bidding, a balanced 12-14 is pretty much a minimum opening and normally raises to 2M when a 4-4 fit is found. Bidding much more aggressively than this on relatively flat hands seems over-aggressive to me. Trying to recalibrate for ZAR points, a typical balanced 12-14 with a fit after 1m-1♥ looks something like: AJxKxxxQxxxKx This evaluates to 13 hcp + 4 controls + 10 = 27 ZAR, then you add one for the doubleton and the heart honor. That's 29 ZAR. This should be a 2♥ bid, and not particuarly close to a 3♥ bid (another jack shouldn't push it over the top). So I'd estimate reasonable ranges for: 1m-1♥-2♥ = 27-31 ZAR3♥ = starts at 32 ZAR A minimum responding hand in standard looks something like 6 hcp and 4333, for a ZAR count around 15 (6 hcp + 8 for shape + 1 control). If you're 4432 (more common) it's a couple points stronger. So a game force probably requires around 35 ZAR points. I'd estimate: 1m - 1♥ - 2♥ = 27-31 ZAR3♥ = 32-34 ZARGF = 35+ ZAR Thanks for the comments. In fact, I use to use a higher minimum. In the actual thread where I discussed this, and showed some hands for Richard, I said (see...reply to richards question In fact, the way I play, the jump to 3♠ on a silent auction like this shows 29 to 32 ZARS, so in fact, 3♠ is a tiny underbid. This is probably why, for instance, some suggest a jump to 4♠. Perhaps 29 ZARS is too light for the jump to 3♠ for you and it needs to be stretched a little bit, but if you but the lower limit to 30, or 31, even 32, this hand is worth significantly more than any of those. In fact, 3♠ is a GREAT bid for this hand if nothing else in your methods is suitable (gazzilli, splinter, etc). So as you can see, I have addressed the same issue you bring up, what the lower limit in terms of ZAR's should be. I happen to use a jump to 2NT by opener to show a hand TOO good for the jump raise to 3M, so if I was to raise the lower minimum of the 3M bid it would affect the upper of that bid and the lower range of 2NT by the same amount. The fact is, after 1m - PASS - 1M - Pass? , or PASS - 1m - PASS - 1M,Pass - ? or PASS - PASS - 1m - PASS,1M - PAss - If you have a fit, and the opponents haven't bid, and you can only scrounge together 29 or 30 ZARS, your partner will not be looking at 15 or 16 ZARS any significant percentage of the time. To examine the "expected" points after 1m-1M-with a minimum fit, I did a bridgebrowser search with the following search criteria. Opener had less than 15 hcp. Opener had 4H. The bidding started 1m-1H-2H. Granted, responder COULD respond with 6 hcp, or 5, or 4, or 3, etc, what is actually the holding he has? For this test, I used 2004 hands from the BBO that meet the following requirements, 1) opening bid of 1m, and 2) a raise to 2M with the opponents passing (not they were only forced to pass up to 2H, they were free to bid after that). Out of these 2004 hands examined, responder held: 0 hcp = 01 hcp = 02 hcp = 03 hcp = 04 hcp = 6 times 5 hcp = 32 times6 hcp = 57 times All totalled the percentage for 0-6 hcp was less than 5% of the time. Responder was more likely to have 18+ than 6 or less. If we look at the six hands with 4 hcp, they had 18, 17, 15, 15, 15, 15, of the hands with 5 hcp, only 6 of those had 15 or 16 zars. Those with 6 hcp, only 10 had 15 or 16 Zars. So only a grand total of 20 out of of 2004 hands had less than 17 ZARS, and to be honest a few of those hand no one in their right mind would ahve responded on. That is less just less than 0.1% More typical are the hands I started posted in the other thread, in reponse to another request from Richard to show some example hands. That thread was.. post with hands. That thread shows, just as you predicted, a good number of balanced yuck hands make it into the jump raise pool. Those hands happened to deal with 1H-P-1S, but the principle was the same (actually, after 1H-1S, my bidding is quite different but that was for illustrative purposes related to the thread where that was the example auction) S AQ42 H T9865 D K C A75 did even discounting the diamond king. Good thing, too, as hard to bid game was bid. Here is the other side of the same coin. This was a hand where the bidding went, at most tables, 1H-1S-2S-GAME... S 9843 H KQ642 D AK C J2 . This hand has 27 ZARS and does not upgrade nearly enough for a jump to 3S. After 1H-1S-2S, staying short the hopeless game the field bid is much easier. It is the this latter problem I had trouble with when I start out with a higher range for the 1m-1M-3M jump. That is, I ran into trouble not with the jump, which worked out ok (in fact, partner almost always carried on to game), but rather with the wide ranging 1m-1M-2M. Partner tended to bid and get us too high, since I open on such "crap" (BTW the 27 fit zar hand you quoted, I would actually pass, and I thought I mentioned that. According to ZAR it can be opened...). And I agree, anyone not playing something akin to 2NT rebid by opener as a forcing raise of the responders major, needs to use a higher range for the their jump raise, akin to the one you suggest. Anyone deathly afraid of getting to high with balanced crap opposite 4333 on a 1m-1M-3M would too. I will add here that my 2/1 is such that partner need not respond with 5-6 points and 4333 distribution, but that is another matter. Perhaps my continued downward adjustment of the 3M jump raise which started off at 32 is an overcompensating move to allow for the weakness of my opening bids. And when I say a good 29, I mean a good 29, most 29's go through 2M instead of 3M. I have one more piece of info, not yet fully explained with my jump rebid too. I open 1NT with 14-16, so the 1m-1M-2M tends to be a balanced 11-13 type hand, or distributional weak hand. Why? As you note, most 12/13 hcp hands with distribution upgrade to the jump to 3M. Thus, 3M is never balanced. If I am too strong for 1NT and I have support, the hand almost always falls into the bid 2NT then raise category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Playing the more aggressive raise style, you're going to play a lot of hands in 3M that I'd play in 2M. I think the thresholds are: Opener "good" 29 - 31 ZAR and responder 15-21, you will play 3M and I play 2M. Opener 27-"bad" 29 ZAR and responder 22-23, you will play 2M and I play 3M. Most other hands we reach the same spot. It should be easy enough to check who loses more by being one level too high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Playing the more aggressive raise style, you're going to play a lot of hands in 3M that I'd play in 2M. I think the thresholds are: Opener "good" 29 - 31 ZAR and responder 15-21, you will play 3M and I play 2M. Opener 27-"bad" 29 ZAR and responder 22-23, you will play 2M and I play 3M. Most other hands we reach the same spot. It should be easy enough to check who loses more by being one level too high. You would think this was easy, but like I said bridgebrowser does not allow for ZAR points. So each hand has to be checked manually (I am not a computer programmer). However, if we could decide on some ground rules as to shape, controls, and hcp, we could approximate the challenge. You would think we could do something like: use bridge browser to give opener 5422 (12 ZAR) plus 4 controls plus 12-13 hcp. This is 28=29 ZARS (my range, btw is good 29 to 32) and at least one for the doubleton and possible two more for heart honor. I would forbid Jx in either of the two card suits. For responder in this challenge, again, I think 15-16 ZARS is unrealistic simply becasuse on the auction that will show up a very low percentage of the tiem (i will look at a larger set to be sure the 0.1% value is right). So define the matching hand to be in the 15 to 21 range will be a challenge (the problem with the wide range including 15-16 is defining a suitable search criteria). To appoach this, I will use responder with 5 to 8 hcp, 0 to 2 controls. That give from 5 to 10 "count points". I will also define the distribution as 4333 to 6421. 10 count points plus 6421 is of course way too many zar points. See the problem? I could do the search in stages. First stage, 4333 and a count of 21 or less zars by doing 10 hcp and no more than 3 controls. Then I can do 4432, and lower the count by 2 hcp. But this gets to be a painful. An alertnative approach is to find the first 100 or 200 or however many 2H and 3H contracts reached in a non-competitive auction, and see what we see compared looking at ZAR points. This seems easier to do. I think someone should pick a date in from June to Jan and I will find them (I will search only for 3H or 2H contracts from non competitive auctions. The first 100 found will be posted here for analysis. I will see if I can get an impartial 3rd party, with acccess to bridgebrowser to confirm the hands found are the first from the said date as sorted by date. That should be easy, cascade, rain, and a few others have access to the same databases I do. Of course many of the hands will not fall neatly into the ranges you suggest, those we just mark off to ignore. Or we can use all the deals in the current BBO main room database in bridgebrowser that starts 1m-1H-2H and ends up in 2H or 3H. There are only 568 such unique deals that start that way, and many of those end in slam or game. In theory, I can exort the hands in html, post them on the homebase club webpage with hyperlinks so they can be discussed here and quickly reviewed. There are only 109 unique hands that started that way and ended up in 2 or 3 H. Not all are useful, this is the very first, were EW can make 4S so NS bidding to 2 or 3H really is fairly meaningless (here it would be meaningless. North has only 25 ZARS (subtract one for Qx of spades) and lacks 4+ spades, so should pass. IMP-4 Dlr: South Board 41929 S Q8 Vul: Both H T952 D KQT63 S K942 C A6 S AJ753 H QJ76 H 3 D AJ8 l D 42 C Q3 S T6 C KJT52 H AK84 D 975 C 9874 East South West North 1D Pass 1H Pass 2H Pass Pass Pass The second hand, is a winner for my range (assumign you open the hand at all). The hand was...North has 25 ZARS and spades, and with this shape, I would open. South will bid 1H and north, even with 1 point for Q of hearts, and 2 points for singleton club, can only total 28 ZARS. South can upgrade for AJ of diamond to raise from 21 to 23, and the club queen is worth one. So South has in the neighboorhood of 23/24 (the diamond upgrades are probalby not worth two full points, and partner is balanced weak, so no excitement over the club queen). This hand would pass 2H. If 2H could be stronger, south might take another bid. On the actual hand, EW pushed NS one higher. IMP-2 l_hakan Dlr: North Board 3480 S AT42 Vul: N-S H Q743 cengizb D KQ43 albertb S KQ C 6 S J983 H J8 H A62 D 765 trouche D T8 C KT9543 S 765 C AJ87 H KT95 D AJ92 C Q2 West North East South cengizb l_hakan albertb trouche 1D Pass 1H Pass 2H Pass Pass 3C Pass Pass 3H Pass Pass Pass 3rd, 5th, 6th, 8th, hands were not even a ZAR open and some held four spades...one had 22 ZARs other 23 and 24. The fourth hand, was a 1NT opener in reality and south had way too many points to stop short of game. Seventh hand we might agree upon, North, 25 Zars 4S south 22 ZARS the hand was, IMP-3 star_one Dlr: North Board 39841 S Q976 Vul: None H K842 amekat1 D AQ2 miracz S KJ C 63 S A54 H J3 H QT5 D JT9863 bluemaroon D K74 C QJ9 S T832 C AT42 H A976 D 5 C K875 West North East South amekat1 star_one miracz bluemaroon 1D Pass 1H Pass 2H Pass Pass Pass The ninth hand is a victory for you, North started with 27 ZARS and in response to 1H, got 2 points for AT of hearts, and another for a doubleton. So with 30 I would leap to 3H. On this hand, 2H can lose 2D, 1D ruff, 1H, 2S and a club. So even 2H is too high. 3H is down one extra for a swing of 50 (double could make 3H much worse). IMP-2 dihao Dlr: West Board 12466 S T2 Vul: E-W H AT64 evesham D QJT52 rogernz S A865 C A7 S QJ43 H J5 H K92 D A97 unka47 D K3 C JT54 S K97 C K863 H Q873 D 864 C Q92 South West North East evesham dihao rogernz unka47 1D Pass 1H Pass 2H Pass Pass Pass That was followed by hand 10, where I would win. North had 26 and got two for the upgrade, so raise to 2H. South had a good 22 with a bonus JACK. So this hand would try again getting to 3H. 3H is off one for a swing of 160. The hand was: IMP-5 Dlr: North Board 3495 S AK74 Vul: None H A543 D 982 S Q86 C 52 S J9 H J9 H T86 D K65 D QJT3 C KQ876 S T532 C AT43 H KQ72 D A74 C J9 West North East South 1C Pass 1H Pass 2H Pass Pass Pass So after the first 10 hands, it is roughly a tie, one hand each. The others are not openers, or one sided... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 As a moderately interesting side issue, there are some advantages to having two ways for opener to raise partner's response to the two-level. Ideally this gets you the best of both worlds! Playing ZAR points you can define: 1m - 1M - 2M = 27-29 ZAR1m - 1M - 2M* = 30-32 ZAR1m - 1M - 3M = 33-35 ZAR Of course, how to do this is an interesting question. Certainly in some precision styles, or some methods where 1♦ promises an unbalanced hand, you might be able to do this. Anyways the same hands that might help with the question about Ben's and my raises to three also might answer some questions about how big the gain would be if we had two ways to raise to two. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 I have attached all 109 hands in a plain text file. In a few days, I will delete this post so the hands will not clog up the system. To downlaod the hands, just click the hyperlinked text file. The file is plain ASCII text. Oh, and I forgot about board 2, as 2H is safer than 3H, but 3H makes. But we will leave that one as a tie. BTW, I noted it wasn;t alll the hand in the database, I had a time date stuck on it so it was only hands in january... forgot to take the time off...example.txt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted July 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 ALERT Before this thread gets too complicated please keep counting out Zar points and adjustments and repeating Zar points you are assuming are needed for each level.I find the repetition very helpful. It can get a bit confusing if Zar says a Jump rebid is one Zar count and Ben plays it as another. A quick review of some of the hands that Ben is bidding and going down on may still win if the opp can bid and make something. Feel free to use my ACBL played hands as examples if need be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 ALERT Before this thread gets too complicated please keep counting out Zar points and adjustments and repeating Zar points you are assuming are needed for each level.I find the repetition very helpful. It can get a bit confusing if Zar says a Jump rebid is one Zar count and Ben plays it as another. A quick review of some of the hands that Ben is bidding and going down on may still win if the opp can bid and make something. Feel free to use my ACBL played hands as examples if need be. Hi mike, ZAR points don't give a number of points for a raise, and if he did, he would probably join awn in shouting down my use of a good 29 (lets call it 30) for the jump to 3M. He would probably agree more with the 32-34 range for the jump. I started with that range, and adjusted downwards. You have to figure out the range within the context of your bidding system. Things like how strong are your 1NT bids? Do you REALLY open trashy 25 ZARS and 26 ZARS. Do you raise 1m-1H-2H on three card support? Do you have or are you willing to further modify your system to show two different ways to raise to 2M or 3M (i use two different ways to raise to 3M, the suggestion above was to use two different ways to raise to 2M). I will be more than happy to find some of your tournament hands (ACBL is not easy for me, tournament and team games in general is) and comment on ZAR issues. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 We we last left the example file, we had evaluated the first 10 hands. This post will look at hands between 11-40. Here in, we will refer to the ranges awn suggest as the "strong" methods, and my methods as the "weak" methods. Strong and weak refer to range of ZAR points for the bids, not which is the best method to use. SUMMARY of the findings in this post. 16 - theoretical better is strong methods, but on actual hands a push 15 - we scored as a win for the stronger methods, (4 imps) (note, it is not even clear that 15 isn't better for the weaker method, see hand/discussion). 28 - is a disaster for the weaker methods, and a clear huge win for the stronger ones. In fact, 28 makes me think I need to "adjust" my rule for opener rebid on this type of hand. I think, at the table, I would not have rebid 3M but it did have 30 ZARS.... but the rule can be and shold be, easily stated to exclude this hand. 14 -- was a possible win for the weak method by staying low17 -- stays low and another win for weaker method on given hand.18 -- stays low, another win for the weaker method (but not everyone would open the hand to begin with).19 -- either a win or a tie for the weaker method, probably leans towards a win, as I doubt responder will bid game by self.26 -- a clear win for the weaker methods36 -- was a theoretical winner for weaker methods, but on these methods it was a tie. So out of the first 40 hands (including first post on these hand). The stronger methods were a clear winner for the stronger methods on Boards 7, 15 and 28, although newly stated rule, 28 would no longer kill my stated range. The stronger method was also theoretically safer, but a push would occur on 16. If we ignore 28 for reason discussed below, the pick up on board 7 would be 2 imps (one less down), and board 15 4 imps. If not, the loss on 28 will be between 3 and 5 imps if no double, and 5 and 12 imps if doubled. The weaker method picked up on boards 10 (4 imps for +110 versus -50), 17 (same 4 imps), 18 (2 to 6 imps), probably 19 (if win, 6 imps), 26 (4 imps). And theoretically safer on 14 and 36. So we have 3 (or 4) out of 40 hands where the stronger method was better, at least theoretically. We have 8 were the weaker methods were better. You will see, however, that if you don't open balanced 11 and 12 hcp hands then a lot of the advantages of the "weaker" raise method will evaporate. So this "victory" (sample size too small to determine which method is superior yet) might not be reflected in your bidding if you adopt this weaker method. I will say this is exactly the experience that lead me to limit the 2M raise (dogma is further away from game, the wider range you can have, but if you open very light, you can not survive such a wide range for 2M, or you will either overbid on the frequent light hands, losing 4 to 6 imps at a pop, or you will underbid on your games, losing on those less often, but losing more imps. This is why I ended up lowering the range of this raise, an experience that, so far, these hands are tending to support. As a lighter opener, I am interested in the proposal that there be two ways (in non competitive auction) to raise 1m-1M to 2M. Obviously if there was a weak and intermediate way without giving up too much, I would be all for that. These hands were not ZAR openers: 22, 24, 25, 27.35, These hands lacked the ZAR points for jump riase or rsponder game try after simple raise, regardless of the range of the jump rebid, or have enough to force to game.11, 12, 20, 21, 23, 29,30, 31, 32, 33, 37, 38 (iinteresting hand), 39, 40 The following hands were a "weak" jumps to 3M number 13... which was: IMP-3 South Dlr: South Board 44415 S 83 Vul: N-S H J984 East D AK872 West S KJ72 C A7 S AQ96 H A2 H Q76 D T65 North D QJ4 C Q832 S T54 C T94 H KT53 D 93 C KJ65 North's hand started life as 12 hcp, 5 control points, and 12 distributional points. This comes to 29 ZAR points. When South bids 1H, north gets 1 bonus point for the jack of hearts, and the way I evalaute, 1 bonus point for a doubleton. This comes to 31, just below awn's jump to 3H, but fine for mine. So I would jump to 3H. Now turn to south. South has 7hcp, 2 control points, and 10 distributional points. For 19 ZARS. However, he gets nothing in terms of an upgrade. So he knows the ZAR total is from 30+19 to 32 + 19. A pass seems normal. 3H is fairly safe, and indeed most players won 10 tricks. Since 10 tricks are available, it is not clear who should win this one, the safer 2H or 3H. I called this one a draw as both missed the game. East South West North 1D Pass 1H Pass 2H Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: HA Result: Made 5 Score: 200 Hand 15 is typical of the ones where you might be in touble with the jump rebid to 3M.... it was.... 15 IMP-4 North Dlr: North Board 20279 S 6 Vul: None H Q642 West D AT84 East S A842 C AQ86 S KQJ3 H AKT H J3 D Q32 South D 9765 C 952 S T975 C K73 H 9875 D KJ C JT4 North starts with 26 ZARS, then gets one more for the heart Q and two more for the singleton spade. That comes to 30 ZARS and a clear jump to 3H. Is this a disaster when 2H makes? Well EW can make 3S, and this bidding will keep them out of spades. Someone might have balanced here. But we can't fault for the 1H bid, so we will chalk this up as a winner for awn methods, but I am not convinced this is bad for our side. If RHO balances with 2S. you will either have to let them play there and make or bid 3H. On this auction, WEST might double. We will call this a win for the stronger methods, but if you are going to bid 3H in competition, it is probably better to bid it right away. West North East South 1D Pass 1H Pass 2H Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: C5 Result: Made 2 Score: 110 16 was a jump to 3H, responder will pass. It is a lucky 10 contract, a push. The following hands were a raise of the stronger 2M bid. 14IMP-3 North Dlr: North Board 52632 S AT5 Vul: Both H J642 West D A642 East S KJ4 C K6 S Q76 H 98 H Q3 D KJT3 South D 985 C AJ42 S 9832 C Q9875 H AKT75 D Q7 C T3 North starts off with 27 and in support of hearts, upgrades to 29. On the plus side, this 29 is control rich (5), on the down side, the spots are pitiful. I have a rule that 29 ZARS are never good in balanced hand (4333, or 4432_. So this fails the goodness test on several levels. So I would rebid 2H. As I noted above, the 2H raise is either a balanced 11-13 or a really weak unbalanced hand with less than 30 ZARS. So South facing a weak notrump in all likelyhood would pass. This is an example fo the type of hand where you can get into trouble with a wider range on the 2H raise. Still responder MIGHT bid on after the weak (25 to 29 ZARS) bid of 2H. But if opener promises "27 to 31" responder has to bid on. Why? South clearly has enough to invite game in hearts opposite such a wide range, since the Diamond Queen is now worth 2 full points in partners first bid suit. South starts with 23 ZARS (doubleton queen worth only 1 pt-- so 8 hcp, 3 cp, 12 dp). Then gets a bonus point for the diamond queen because it is in partners suit, to 24, and with a 5th trump (had only promised 4), gets one point for a doubleton. With 25 ZARS, south will surely bid again opposite a hand that could include 31 ZARS and may bid again anyway. This is not a very good game, you have two sure spade loses, possible 2 club losers, a sure diamond loser, and you still must find the heart Queen. If you believe in the weakness method of the 2H rebid, that is, it shows a weak NT opener limited to 13 hcp, this hand is a clear pass of 2H. You might call this one a draw, since south MIGHT make another game try, say vulnerable at imps, but clearly the only method that has a chance to stay safely in 2H is the weaker range. Board 17 was winner for the weaker jump to 3M, so that 2M can be passed. The hand was.17 IMP-5 South Dlr: South Board 4469 S K Vul: N-S H Q742 East D JT876 West S AT863 C AQ8 S Q72 H A93 H K5 D Q3 North D 952 C 962 S J954 C KJ543 H JT86 D AK4 C T7 North can just scrape together enough for a opening bid, he has 12 hcp, but deduct one for the singleton K, make it 11. He has 2 controls (singleton king is only worth 2 ZAR points, unless partner bid the suit), and 13 distributional. That comes to 26. In support of hearts, he gets 1 for the queen and 2 for the singleton. Coming to a horrible 29. South starts with 22. Even if he upgrades for diamond honors in his partners suit, pass is in order with the weak methods, a game try come with the wider range of 2H. On this hand, reasonable play leads to the loss of 1S, 1C, 2H, and 1D. Thus a win for the weaker method that I use. East South West North 1D Pass 1H Pass 2H Pass Pass Pass 18 is not a "ZAR" opener, but many people open these balanced 12's. If you did open it, this is another clear win for my methods. The hand was. 18 IMP-4 South Dlr: South Board 30870 S AQ2 Vul: E-W H QT53 East D KJ4 West S 983 C 742 S KT65 H A84 H 97 D T8 North D Q7632 C AKJT9 S J74 C 85 H KJ62 D A95 C Q63 East South West North 1C Pass 1H Pass 2H Pass Pass Pass After 1m-1H-2H. playing the weaker ZAR range, south has a clear pass despite his 11 hcp. HE has, after all, only 22 ZARS. This is a hand, however, many will raise all the way to game, if not to 3H. NS has to lsoe 1S, 1H, 3C, and 1D. The diamond TEN lead, however, will solve one of the losers, as happened at the table. Board 19 is a clear win for the weaker methods I advocate. The hand was"19 IMP-4 South Dlr: South Board 17783 S AT Vul: E-W H Q843 East D AQ85 West S Q985 C 953 S K42 H A65 H K D T North D 6432 C AJT62 S J763 C KQ874 H JT972 D KJ97 C North starts with 26 ZARS, and get 2 more fit points (heart honor and doubleton). That is only 28. A clear 2H rebid in either method. South has an interesting hand. He has diamond fit, with two honors. So now, he knows his side has at least 7D he can upgrade the diamond honors. With a void, he can also add 3 more ZAR points for his fifth heart. That comes to 6 hcp, 1cp, 14 dp, 3 points for the combination of the "club void plus the extra trump". South comes to 24 ZARs if he doesn't cound the diamond honors, 26 if he does. So South could just bid game over the raise, or he could invite. If he invites and 2H only promised "25-29", north with 28 would bid game. What would north who promised 27-31 do with 28? I suspect pass. Some may disagree, but I consider this a win for the weaker methods as game is always reached, in the stronger methods, opposite and invite it will not be. 26 was a clear victory for the weaker methods... the hand was.26IMP-1 West Dlr: West Board 26343 S 6542 Vul: Both H KT94 South D A75 North S KJ98 C AJ S QT7 H J73 H A8 D Q East D KJ843 C Q9873 S A3 C 542 H Q652 D T962 C KT6 South West North East 1D Pass 1H Pass 2H Pass 3H Pass Pass Pass North here has 12 hcp, 5 cp, 10 dp. for 27. In support of hearts, he gets two more for the heart KT, but if he counts the club jack as a full value, he can not also count it as a doubleton. This comes to 29, but with aces in short suits, this clearly is not a good 29. And remember, with a balanced hand, 29 ZARs are never "good" anyway. South has 22 ZARS, enough to try for game over the stronger range, but a clear pass opposite the weaker one. 28 is a hand that makes me think that the "rules" I state for a jump to 3M need to be rephrased. I already had an adjustment in place for 1m-1M-2M such that with a balanced 11-13 (4432), no "29 ZARs with fit are "good". And I describe the 1m-1M-2M as most often being a balanced 11-13 (for reason discussed in an earlire thread this is the most common case). On 28, opener has a balanced 12, right in the middle of the typical raise to 2M. But the hand came to 30 ZARS, despite the balanced nature of the hand. AT the table, I would have raise to 2H without counting ZARS or fitting ZARS, it surprised me when I saw this hand qualified as a 3H raise as I describe it, since it held 30 ZARS (as I noted earlier, the simple raise is most typically a balanced hand not strong enough for 1NT,which this one clearly is). Following the 30-32 ZAR jump raise rule, I would have landed in 3H on this one for sure. (Partner has 20 ZARS, and balanced hand and would have most likely passed 3H, but even that is not clear, and 4Hx become possible). 28IMP-5 West Dlr: West Board 20261 S T3 Vul: E-W H KT42 South D AJ9 North S AK75 C AT92 S J942 H AJ86 H 7 D T532 East D KQ87 C 5 S Q86 C J863 H Q953 D 64 C KQ74 North, 12 hcp, 5 cp, 10 dp = 27. Fit ZAR points, he gets 2 for the heart honors and one for the doubleton, = 30 points. This hand makes me believe, that all 'balanced 11-13" with support should be stated as the automatic raise to 2M, as that is what I typically do anyway. But if using the ZAR range I quoted, this would be toast for me. For this part of the rule balanced should be 4432 only (no way to 30 zars with 4333 anyway). South West North East 1C Pass 1H Pass 2H Pass Pass Dbl Pass 2S Pass Pass 3H Pass Pass Pass 36 was a theoretical winner for the weaker methods, although on this hand, we will call it a push as there are 9 tricks in hearts. The hand was: 36IMP-8 East Dlr: East Board 47375 S 9875 Vul: E-W H KQ86 North D A96 South S QJ3 C K8 S KT62 H T5 H J7 D KJ8 West D Q732 C AT653 S A4 C Q94 H A9432 D T54 C J72 North has 26 and gets some upgrades, but not enough. But south is looking at 24 ZARS and must move over a wide ranging 2H raise. 1s, 2d, 1C loser North East South West 1D Pass 1H Pass 2H Pass 3H Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: SQ Result: Down 1 Score: -100 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 Next 30 hands (41-70) continue the trend of the strong 2H raise overbidding more than the weaker 2H raise...... outcomes on these 30 hands are listed first, with the bolded hands shown at bottom (all hands given as attachment a few post above this one). 41 - 2H all pass both methods42 - 3H for weak (-2), 2H for strong (-1), strong win 2 imps 43 - 2H for weak, 3H for strong, both make, theoretical advantage Weak44 - 4H for both45 - 2H weak, 3H strong, as cards lie, makes. theoretical advantage weak46 - 2H both47 - 2H both48 - 2H weak (+110), 3H strong (-50), win for weak +4 imps49 - 2H both50 - 4H both, has a play51 - 2H +110 weak, 3H -1 strong, 4 imps for weak. 52 - 2H strong, 3H weak. Makes 9 tricks. Theoretical advantage Strong53 - 2H both54 - 4H both55 - 2H weak, 3H strong both make. Theoretical advantage weak56 - 4H both57 - 2H both58 - 3H weak, 3/4 hearts strong.. interesting divididing poiint. 59 - 4H both60 - 2H both (using balaned 11-13 4432 rule). 61 - 2H both62 - 2H both63 - 2H strong, 3H weak, win 4 imps strong. interesting discussing hand64 - 2H both65 - 4H both, 66- 2H weak (if opened), 3H strong, both make. theoretical advantage weak67 - 2H both68 - 2H weak, 3H strong, theoretical advantage weak69 - 2H weak, 3H strong, 8 tricks against best defense, win weak70 - 2H each. Summary: Wins for Strong method...42 - clear win 2imps52 - theoretical only Wins for weak method.... 43 - theoretical only 45 - theoretical only 48 - + 4 imps51 - + 4 imps55 - theoretical only 58 - either win for weak or tie, see hand.66 - theoretical only 68 - theoretical only 69 - win _4 imps. HAND 42 IMP-2 South Dlr: South Board 33097 S QJ63 Vul: E-W H AJ85 East D AT72 West S AT4 C T S K952 H T H KQ92 D KQJ64 North D C J874 S 87 C Q9532 H 7643 D 9853 C AK6 Noth has 27 ZARs before south bis 1H. He now has +2 for heart honors, and plus 2 for singleton club. This comes to 31 and clear jump to 3H. South with only 20, bad clubs will pass. The bidding with strong will be only 2H end auction. The heart split damages both contracts. HAND 48 IMP-8 West Dlr: West Board 56358 S 987 Vul: N-S H AQT9 South D AQ4 North S AQJT5 C 974 S K3 H 865 H 74 D 932 East D KJ875 C J2 S 642 C KT86 H KJ32 D T6 C AQ53 North has nothing to be proud of. It is safe to say this is not even an opener, but some don't like to pass with 2.5 quick tricks. IF north opens, NS can stop in 2H only playing weak, as south has 23 ZARS and if partner opens a club will even add some for four clubs to AQ. Hand 51 IMP-6 North Dlr: North Board 39859 S AT92 Vul: E-W H AK43 West D J3 East S 843 C T98 S J76 H H QJT8 D QT942 South D A87 C AK754 S KQ5 C J62 H 97652 D K65 C Q3 Balanced 11-13, north raise to 2H. South has 9 hcp, 2 cp, 11 distribional point, for 22. Subtract one for the doubleton club Queen, but when partner opens 1C, you can add that one back. South gets to add an additional point for the fifth heart when combined with a doublton, for 23. South will make a game try. The defense can collect 2H. 2S, and 1D. Win for weak. The next two hands are "edge" hands. Let's see how they work. Hand 58 IMP-2 South Dlr: South Board 36269 S T3 Vul: E-W H QT93 East D K5 West S Q972 C AKJT8 S AK8 H 75 H A84 D AQ863 North D T972 C 54 S J654 C 732 H KJ62 D J4 C Q96 North starts off wih 29 ZARS. When patner bids Hearts, he gets two more for heart QT, and one for the doubleong and four trumps combined. This comes to 32 ZARS. 32 ZARS is a jump to 3H in both weak and strong. The difference is, in the weak, 32 is the maximum held, in the strong, it is the minimum. South gets an upgrade for the club queen, because this jump to 3H always shows a real club suit (or esle enough to open 1NT). So south's hand is 7 hcp (subtract 1 hcp for Jx), 10 dp, 1cp, and 1 pt for fitting club Q. That is 19 ZARS. For weak jump players, 17+32 is only 51, short one point of "game values" and of course, opener is likely not to have as many as 17. So an easy pass of 3H. For strong jumpers, 32 is the minimum, with a range of up to 35, and all the real values are in the bid suits. It will be a temptation to bid on. Remember the value of the diamond JACK is already discounted, so there is hidden extra here too. Hand will lose 1H, 2S, and 1D so 3H is limit. Hand 65 is also one that the strong method will jump to 3H on. North starts life with 30 ZARS and in support of hearts, picks up 2 for heart honors and 2 for the singleton spade. This comes to 34 ZARS. A near maximum for the strong method, and too strong for a jump to 3H in the "weak" method. Hand 65 IMP-9 South Dlr: South Board 26041 S T Vul: N-S H KQ74 East D K43 West S KQJ432 C AJ985 S 9765 H J3 H A95 D QT2 North D A85 C 64 S A8 C KT7 H T862 D J976 C Q32 What about south? 7 hcp, 2cp, 10 dp. South also (after the jump) knows the club queen is working, so adds one more for that. No other adjustments, this totals 20. North with at least 32 points for his jump, give them 52 minimum. The ZAR strategy is to bid game. The weak method, gives no wiggle room. The way we play this (again, very non-standard) is to bid 2NT as opener as "Jacoby-esque" promsing two suits, and more than 32 ZARS. 20 zars plus 33 minimum, and game will be bid as well. If etiher pair was going to stop safely at 3H it would be the strong jump pair. hand 63 IMP-8 North Dlr: North Board 59228 S KT Vul: None H KJ73 West D Q8 East S 986543 C KJT53 S AJ7 H AQ6 H 9 D AT74 South D KJ96 C S Q2 C Q9762 H T8542 D 532 C A84 Hand 63 (above) is an easy stop in 2H for the strong method. For the weak method, it will grind to a halt in 2 or 3H. North begins life with 27 ZARS (minus one point for Qx of diamonds). In support of hearts he scores two for the KJ and one for a doubleton. This comes to 30. The question is are the subtractions here (scattered values, over-evalaution of KT and Qx when you figure you count some of the hcp value and then for doubleton too, sufficient to detract another point. If the answer is yes, you end up in 2H if no, 3H. I think this should be treated as 4432 or 5332 type balanced and rebid only 2H. But this is seeing all four hands. What do you do, would you consider this a "balanced" 11-13 hcp and rebid only 2H according to the rules of weak balanced raises? Hand 69 IMP-5 North Dlr: North Board 55673 S AK8 Vul: E-W H AJ62 West D T8 East S Q975 C J872 S J3 H Q43 H K9 D K74 South D QJ965 C Q54 S T642 C KT93 H T875 D A32 C A6 Easy stop in 2H for weak method (north balanced 11-13). If the 2H bid can hide up to 32 ZARS, south with 22 ZARS will have little choice but to bid again (after all the total might be 54). In 3H, you have 1C, 1D, 1H and 1S obvious loser, but if WEST holds on tighly to the heart ten, NS will have to lose a club overruff, or a second spade as there is only 8 tricks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 Review of hands 71-109. Since the weaker opener hands come first in the search, I thought that overbidding with the stronger hands would occur more often when the opener was weak. For most to these last hands, opener had solid value of 14 hcp. Unfortunately this throws the comparison off, because the method I use relies on opening balanced hands with 14-16 1NT, so there isn't a bid to describe a balanced 14 or 15 with support per se. A fair number of this final group of hands would be opened 1NT, messing up the theory of straight raise with the balance 13 or less, and causing some confusion. With 4333 and 14 you can treat it as if it was a 11-13 (deduce for bad distribution). But some 4432 14's lead to overbidding iwth a jump to 3H, so be it. We will struggle through them the best we can. Win for strong method82 - technical win (safer) in 2H84 - technical win in 2H versus 3H, but this was a 1NT opener and 3H avoided90 - 3H weak, 2H strong. Wins for weak method77 -- if opened 1m, weak gets to 4H, strong may only get to 2H. This is 1NT opener however87 - clear win weak91 - clear win weak if 1NT not used. South has enough to bid again with strong.92 - probably a push, but mildest of advantages to weak method. 93 - probably a win for weak. 94 - 4H for weak, 2H for strong, huge win for weak102 - technical win for the weak This time, the wins were closer to equal perhaps. But note, 2/3 of the wisn for the strong method were related to inability to open 1NT with the right hand type for this puzzle with the 14-16 1NT hands this method was designed for. No overbidding occurs if 1NT is opened on those hands. If anyone can suggest another method to compare the ranges, I am all ears. 71-73 2H both74 2H each or pass out each75 - 2H76 - 2H77 - a 14 hcp opener for me. But if open 1m, 4H for weak, 2H weak, big win weak78 - 2H 79 - another 14 hcp opener. 4H both methods80 - another 14 hcp opener (the search engine found weaker hands first, explaining why... thye are ranked on openers hcp total). 4H easch81 - another 14 hcp opener. 4H both82 - 2H strong, and if opened this hand 1m 3H weak. techniccal advange Strong with caveat83 - easy 4H both84 - 3H weak, 2H strong. But again, really weak bidding would be 1NT-2D-2H end. 85- 2H both (spade Qx worth only one)86 - 4H both87 - 4H or maybe 3H for strong, 2H weak, clear win weak. 88 - 2H both89 - 4H both90 - 2H strong, 3H weak (clear 1NT problem) 91 - 3H weak, 2H strong win strong. 92- 3H weak, 2H strong, but after a 14-16 NT the contract would be 2H both.93 - 3H weak, 2H strong, technical win for strong 94 - 4H for weak, 2H for strong, huge win for weak 95 - 4H both96 - another 1NT hand so difficult to judge, it woudl be 2H if 1NT opened. both97 - 2H both98 - 3H both, strong would be worried opposite 35 ZARS. (a 32 ZAR hand)99 - aniother 1NT hand, so difficult to judge. Should be 1NT all pass I guess100 - 2H weak (even 14-16 1NT, this 14 would be down graded). 3H strong, 3H is minus one, win for weak.101 - 4H both102 - 3H strong, 2/3 H weak. Technical win weak103 - 2H both104 - a 1NT-2D-2H hand, for both105 - likely 4H for both (more 1NT openers)106 - likely 4H for both (more 1NT openers)107 - A cautionary tale. Likely 4H for both108 - 4H for both109 - 4H or maybe 5H for both, as north hand skyrockets in ZARS. Hand 77 IMP-5 North Dlr: North Board 1385 S KQ63 Vul: E-W H J965 West D AT7 East S J52 C A2 S 94 H Q3 H K42 D QJ98 South D K642 C K854 S AT87 C QJ76 H AT87 D 53 C T93 This hand, open 1NT or open 1D, NS get to 4H. After 1D-1H north has 29 ZARs to start of (14 hcp, 5cp, 10 dp) In support of hearts he gets 1 for heart J, and one for Ax. That is 31. South has 22 ZAR points (8 hcp, 4 cp, 10 dp). Wtith the jump to 3H showing 30 (min) ZARS and south having 22 ZARS, game is reached. For strong method, the raise to 2H and the game try with 22 ZARS. North who could have from 27 to 31 ZARS will probably carry on to game. The question is would south risk the game try. We will allow as they will here. So btoh sides bid game. 87 IMP-2 South Dlr: South Board 5604 S AT5 Vul: None H K965 East D AK4 West S 972 C T83 S QJ6 H 7 H AQ3 D JT92 North D 853 C AK975 S K843 C QJ42 H JT842 D Q76 C 6 Of course, north woudl open 1NT. But if he opened 1C/1D he has only 28 ZARS. When partner bids 1H, his ZAR ttotal doesn;t go up but to 29. This is a clear 2H rebid. South, as bad as he is, has 22 Zars (6 hcp, 1 cp, 15 dp). This south will have to invite game, and get too high. Versus a 2H weak raise, 22 zars can pass. 90 IMP-7 South Dlr: South Board 25942 S AK42 Vul: None H KQ94 East D Q63 West S 863 C T6 S T7 H A5 H 876 D AJT5 North D K874 C 9872 S QJ95 C AKQJ H JT32 D 92 C 543 Typiccal of the balanced 14 problem. We all know north would open 1NT, south stayman, 2H end of auction. But if it goes 1D-1H, north is obliged to bid 3H, which is too high. This counts as one of the strong methods wins, but you see I don't believe it. 92 IMP-7 North Dlr: North Board 10621 S K7 Vul: Both H A732 West D K8 East S 963 C A9542 S Q854 H KT6 H Q4 D A654 South D QJ72 C KT7 S AJT2 C Q83 H J985 D T93 C J6 after 1c-1H- north (if not open 1NT), 3H is too good for this hand in the weak method (max of 32) so will go through a frocing 2NT. Game will be bid as south has 7 hcp (count Jack now in clubs), 2cp, and 10 dp will have 19, so minimum of 52. The strong method north will bid 3H and their minimum is 51, but we think both will bid the game. . 93 IMP-7 North Dlr: North Board 7826 S KQ52 Vul: Both H A982 West D 6 East S T74 C KQ74 S A8 H T H J543 D KQ984 South D AJT5 C AT53 S J963 C 986 H KQ76 D 732 C J2 North starts with 29 ZARS, in support of hearts, he gets 2 for stiff diamond and 1 for heart ace. That is 32. He will jump to 3H. South, gets to count club jack now, so has 7 hcp, 1cp, 10 dp. That comes to 19. He will pass. Stromg method morth also has 32 fit ZARS and will also jump to 3H. But here, instead of 51 as a maxiumum, 51 is the minimum. It will be hard for south to pass this jump in practice. IMP-7 North Dlr: North Board 41848 S AQ32 Vul: Both H AQ85 West D J8 East S T987 C J85 S 654 H 3 H K762 D QT752 South D A64 C K72 S KJ C AT6 H JT94 D K93 C Q943 If north downgrade his hand to 11-13 hcp, he would rebid 2H over 1H, in the weak method, ending the auction. In the strong method, when he rebid 2H, south would make a game try (south has 24 ZARS). In 3H, you lsoe 1H, 2C, 1D but risk a club ruff, so a technical win for weak method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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