How do we avoid this again?

[jillybean]

[hv=d=n&v=b&w=skqj10942h97d754c9&e=s8hak102dqj9cakj107]266|100|Scoring: MP

(p)1♣:1♠

2♥:4♠

4nt:5♠

6♠[/hv]

 

Another hand from the tournament, bad luck or bad bidding, should east pass 4♠ ?

Does 2♥ here promise extra values?

 

tyia

jb

[blackshoe]

2 hearts is a reverse, and yeah, it shows extra values - about what East actually has. Now West can bid 2 spades (weak), 3 spades (inviting East to cue bid, IMO) or 4 spades (slam seems unlikely, partner). If West had a fit with either of East's suits, he could raise, so he doesn't have one. Should East pass 4 spades? Well, apparently they're going to play in spades, where East has a singleton, and East has two top losers in clubs, so yeah, I think so.

 

BTW, it is rarely a good idea to blackwood with a completely uncontrolled suit unless partner has already shown a control there.

[helene_t]

Agree with blackshoe. East told her story by bidding 2♥ and should respect West's decision. Even with a significantly better hand, East would have to pass.

 

Not sure why West bid 5♠, though. Maybe she thought that 4NT was not Blackwood? What else could it be?

[Walddk]

Yes, East should pass 4♠. The 2♥ reverse already showed a strong hand, and West knows that. Not sure what 5♠ is (did West perhaps think that 4NT was to play?).

 

Even 4♠ is in jeopardy (possible diamond ruff), but it's a perfectly normal game.

 

Roland

[inquiry]

To avoid it again, avoid bidding the same values twice unless specifically forced (or strongly invited) to do so. Also, discuss when 4NT is RKCB and when it is not.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

2H is a reverse, i.e. it promises add. values,

some even play, that 2H forces to game, I dont.

 

4S is a sign of bid, which East should respect, 3S

would be stronger.

... I dont want to discuss the merits of 2S (non) forcing,

I prefer non forcing, but there are lots of people out there

who play 2S as forcing.

The meaning of 3S depends on the meaning of 2S,

nevertheless 4S is weakness.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe,

[pclayton]

I'd pass 4♠, but I'd also bid a direct 4♠ over 1♣.

 

Doesn't 4♠ show exactly this type of hand?

[mikeh]

Not much to add here... I agree 100% with Roland.

 

4♠ should deny slam interest: with the same hand and, say, the ♦ A, bid 3♠. Both 3 and 4♠ state that bidder doesn't care about how good or long opener's ♠s are: ♠s are trump. The difference is that 3♠ says that responder is at least not disinterested in higher things while 4 says 'please, please say pass'.

 

As you may gather from this scheme, I play 2♠ rebid as forcing.... not to game, but absolutely NOT passable, and this is the mainstream north american method. Some, such as Phil may, by agreement, play it as non-forcing, and there will be others you encounter who play it non-forcing, not by agreement, but through ignorance of (North American) standard. As for the rest of the world, I suspect that there are areas where 2♠ is, according to standard agreements, non-forcing.

[neilkaz]

4S on this sequence, really is a sign off. But why bid 5S after 4NT, and why carry on from 5S to 6S ?

 

If you don't play splinters over 1C, you may wish to jump to 3S directly as a preemptive jump shift. However, if you're unsure about confusing PD, just jump to 4S after 1C. You likely have good play for it, and if PD has rags for his opening, maybe the opps have 4 red to make. If the opps get into a slow auction here, you may be pushed to 4S anyhow.

 

I like bidding 4S right away, and then 1S followed by a jump to 4S can show a bit more than you have.

 

Anyhow...your jump to 4S should be passed by PD here.

[pclayton]

Not much to add here... I agree 100% with Roland.

 

4♠ should deny slam interest: with the same hand and, say, the ♦ A, bid 3♠. Both 3 and 4♠ state that bidder doesn't care about how good or long opener's ♠s are: ♠s are trump. The difference is that 3♠ says that responder is at least not disinterested in higher things while 4 says 'please, please say pass'.

 

As you may gather from this scheme, I play 2♠ rebid as forcing.... not to game, but absolutely NOT passable, and this is the mainstream north american method. Some, such as Phil may, by agreement, play it as non-forcing, and there will be others you encounter who play it non-forcing, not by agreement, but through ignorance of (North American) standard. As for the rest of the world, I suspect that there are areas where 2♠ is, according to standard agreements, non-forcing.

Mike - what gave you the idea that I play 2♠ as NF?

 

I do have a pet idea where I think 2♠ should show a six card suit though.

[1eyedjack]

I think that 4S should be a highly specific bid, and it may even be a discouraging bid, and this hand my indeed fit the bill, but I really don't see how it can be a sign-off (even though opener is here suitable for passing). Opener is unlimited and could have a Spade fit. How can responder be unilaterally sure that there is no slam?

[P_Marlowe]

I think that 4S should be a highly specific bid, and it may even be a discouraging bid, and this hand my indeed fit the bill, but I really don't see how it can be a sign-off (even though opener is here suitable for passing). Opener is unlimited and could have a Spade fit. How can responder be unilaterally sure that there is no slam?

He cant, and opener is certainly

allowed to march on, if he has a

very strong reverse, i.e. a controll

rich one and fit for responder,

i.e. a near 2C opener.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[neilkaz]

I agree that opener can have some kind of control oriented monster that is almost a 2C opening but was opened at the 1 level to make it easier to show two suits. That hand can continue after the 4S sign off, but the hand shown here should not.

 

Obviously the holder of the non spade hand here felt that 4S showed more playing strength since he passed up a chance to pass 5S as well.

 

Before your next event it may help to discuss reverses with your PD for a bit.

 

.. neilkaz ..

[TheoKole]

In my opinion, West should bid 4 spades at his first turn.

 

This bid would show what he has, a relatively weak hand in points, but a self sustaining suit which can be played opposite a void. After partner opens you can bid 4 spades with this type of hand, and at least have a good play for game.

 

The actual bidding 1 ♠ then 4 ♠ should show a much bigger hand, at least with the A ♦, so East is justified in looking for a slam.

 

Regards, Theo :rolleyes:

[neilkaz]

If I can't play 3S as WJS, I bid 4S on my first call (maybe it's best anyhow) but even after the reverse, 4S shows just this sort of hand and unless the reverser has an absolute monster he should pass.

 

I don't want to beat a dead horse but I truly don't understand the 5S response to 4NT. The purpose of RKC..etc is to stay out of bad slams. So just respond with 1 key card in RKC (off course it is for spades after your jump showing a near solid 7) and no aces if normal Blackwood.

 

When you bid 5S, PD, who was confused by 4S thinks you have 2 keys + the Q, and takes a shot at 6S.

 

Practice reverse bidding with your PD's. It can be difficult to stop when responder is min, and sometimes responder is min, but opener wants game anyhow, and gets passed in 3 making 4 or more. These things are less of an issue for advanced partnerships, but create practical difficulties for many of us at this level or playing with pick-ups.

[SoTired]

I think the bidding was fine until the 4N bid. 3S is surely forcing, so 4S must be a sign-off showing a hand with no outside strength. Opener looking at the likely 2 diam losers must pass 4S. In addition, opener has little more than already shown by the 2H reverse and has no reason to override responder's sign-off.

 

I don't like an initial 4S bid by responder. I'd reserve that bid for weaker and longer spades. 1S then 4S tells the story quite well.

[jillybean]

I’d like to open this again for discussion, part of my question was:

Does 2♥ here show extra values

1♣:1♠

2♥

 

Some have said yes it’s a reverse, it shows extra values.

I do not agree that it guarantees extra values. It is the lowest level hearts can be bid, it is showing better than minimum values and forcing 1 round.

 

There is another thread that covers the topic of reverses showing extra values or not, if anyone has it please post a link ~~ thanks.

 

jb

[HeartA]

2H is certainly a reverse. Since West has showed his ♠ as self-sufficient trump, I would play 4NT as RKC. If ♦ and ♠ were switched, 4NT would be reasonable.

[P_Marlowe]

I’d like to open this again for discussion, part of my question was:

Does 2♥ here show extra values

1♣:1♠

2♥

 

Some have said yes it’s a reverse, it shows extra values.

I do not agree that it guarantees extra values. It is the lowest level hearts can be bid, it is showing better than minimum values and forcing 1 round.

<snip>

The last sentence says it all,

does it not?

 

Better than min, i.e. add. value,

forcing partner to bid again,

asking partner go to go to the 3 level

even if broke, ... to you think that is an

good idea, if opener has no reserves.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Winstonm]

I’d like to open this again for discussion, part of my question was:

Does 2♥ here show extra values 

1♣:1♠   

2♥

 

Some have said yes it’s a reverse, it shows extra values.

I do not agree that it guarantees extra values. It is the lowest level hearts can be bid, it is showing better than minimum values and forcing 1 round.

 

There is another thread that covers the topic of reverses showing extra values or not, if anyone has it please post a link ~~  thanks.

 

jb

Yes, JB, it shows extra values, but not because some bridge god deemed it so - it shows extra values because it forces your partner to take a preference back to your first suit at the 3 level.

 

Suppose your partner held xxx and x in your two suits.

 

1H-1S

2C-2H.

 

Partner says he likes hearts better and he can say so at the two level. You have not forced him past the two-level so you can be on a minimum.

 

1C-1S

2H-3C

 

Partner says he likes clubs better, but you have forced him to show this weak preference 1-level higher - hence, you have to have a stronger hand to make him do this.

 

Questions like yours are the reason I still think a basic Goren 4-card major system should be taught to all beginners. First, it is easy. Second, it teaches the concept of "preparedness", or how do I bid this hand if partner responds in my short suit. Third, after understanding Goren, you then understand the give-ups that occur when changing to 5-card majors and your bidding is better because of it.

And last, you can take 4 complete beginners with crib sheets and in about 10 minutes time have them playing the game, and that is what beginners want to do - play, and not listen to some boring lecture.

[jillybean]

1♣:1♠

2♥

 

better than minimum

 

1♣:1♥

2♠

 

this is what I consider a reverse showing extra values - 16+

 

 

I have found the earlier thread on this topic

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...l=reverse&st=15

[Walddk]

1♣:1♠

2♥

 

better than minimum

 

1♣:1♥

2♠

 

this is what I consider a reverse showing extra values - 16+

1. Reverse, 17(16)+ hcp. Forcing for at least one round.

2. Jump shift, 19-21 hcp, game forcing.

 

Reverse Bid

This is an unforced rebid at the 2-level or more ("high reverse") in a higher ranking suit than that originally bid. This shows at least 5 cards in the lower first-bid suit and at least 4 cards in the higher ranking suit. Minimum 16 hcp (some prefer 17+). It's a strong bid, but not game forcing.

 

Roland

[Winstonm]

1♣:1♠

2♥

 

better than minimum

 

1♣:1♥

2♠

 

this is what I consider a reverse showing extra values - 16+

Terminology:

 

The first hand is a reverse, as opener reversed the order of bid suits, i.e., bidding his higher ranking suit secondly at the two level.

 

Hand two is a jump shift. Opener jumped the bidding (could have bid 1S but elected to bid 2) and shifted to a new suit (spades). Most play this as a virtual game force. (And some call this a jump reverse, as well.)

 

As for strength, it is really not an issue for debate or personal feelings. The strength required to reverse is one that has enough extra values to play at the 3-level in a 5/3 fit when responder holds a bare minimum. American players I believe would call it a good 17 on up. You are not reversing to show your strength - a minimum reverse strength hand (17 count) might bid 1H-1S-2C with longer hearts - the point is it requires a lot of HCP to reverse this sequence because partner may be on a lousy 6-count with at best so-so support.

 

You state it only shows extra values as this is the cheapest way to bid your second suit - and you have now hit upon the problem of playing 5-card majors - sometimes you can't bid your other suit because the hand is not strong enough. (Just look at all the posts about rebidding 1N or 2C or opening 1N on these types hands).

 

This gets back to Goren. Goren taught that with a hand such as:

x, AKxx, xxx, AKJxx that you have to be prepared for a 1S response from partner and thus must plan your bidding - in this case the opening bid would be 1H so when partner bids 1S or 1N opener has a rebid without reversing - because the hand is not strong enough to play opposite KJxx, xxx, Qxx, xxx at the three level.

But 4-card major have some built in innaccuracy. What do you do with xx, xx support in both suits? How does opener show 5 in a major, etc. Hence was born 5-card majors....and a new set of problems.

 

However, players of the stature of Bob Hamman and Eddie Kantar played 4-card majors almost forever (and may still for all I know).

[jillybean]

This is a little like a jig saw puzzle, for anyone who is interested here is the other thread on reverses where I asked a very similar question.

 

 

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...ra+values"

[luke warm]

the link posted shows competitive bidding.. the examples in this thread are constructive bidding... my view is the same as others

 

1c : 1s

2h is a reverse, showing 17+ playing points and is a 1 round force

 

1c : 1h

2s is a jump shift, showing 19+ playing points and is a game force

 

in the other thread, there was interference and i think adam's explanation there about says it all