Further Misadventures of Rex and Jay

[microcap]

Neither side vulnerable, playing a team match against very weak opposition.

 

You deal and hold [hv=d=s&v=n&s=s6ha83daq7cakj543]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

You open 1♣, LHO passes, Partner bids 1♠, RHO overcalls 2♥.

 

You are playing 2/1 with a top limit of 16 HCP for 1 NT.

 

What do you rebid and why?

 

I gave a wide range of choices just for the heck of it. :) :)

[inquiry]

Interesting you left double out of the list of choices.. oh well, guess other handles that option, of course if you play support doubles, double is not an option.

 

What not to bid...

• 2♠/3♠ - crazy bids, and they are there while double is not?
  
• 4♣ - no chance to play 3NT if you bid this
  
• 2NT/3NT - potentially wrong siding notrump contract, don't mind if partner fits clubs or has the queen, but we can't know that at this, can we?
  

With the forbidden bids out of the way, that leaves...

 

3♣ - a bit of an underbid, but given the misfit with spades, not a horrible choice

3♥ - putting all the eggs in the 3NT/4♣ basket

3♦ - might catch partner bidding 3♥ with a club fit and 3NT with a full stopper

3♥ - will get partner to bid 3NTwith Qx or Jxx of hearts.

Dbl = just about right if not support. Partner bids 2♠ you can bid 3♣, partner bids about anything else, you can bid 3♥ or 3NT. If partner bids 3♦ you can try 3♥ in the hope to right side 3NT, and if that fails (partner bids 3♠, you can bid 3NT and hope three rounds of hold up will suffice to block the suit.

 

So, assuming not playing support double, I double. Otherwise I free bid a timid, but not weak, 3♣. BTW, I never play support doubles unless partner really, really insist on them.

[microcap]

I sure meant to include Double as a choice!! Consider Other as a vote for double thanks Ben!!!!

[hrothgar]

3♦ seems most flexible...

[mike777]

3♦ seems most flexible...

Agree, just hope I find this bid at the table, under pressure. Congrats to those that do.

 

I can understand those that bid 3nt instead.

[Winstonm]

3C. Even in this day of bid em up bridge this still should show a good hand.

[luke warm]

i would probably bid 3♥

[cherdano]

I can live with many bids, but I really dislike 3♦. No fake suits in competitive auctions, please, unless you want to play 5♦X on a 4-3 fit.

 

Arend

[microcap]

One thing, we were playing support doubles, so double is out.

That's probably why I forgot it as an option in the first place.

 

I would like to hear any comments about 3NT, either from the supporters or the detractors.

[pbleighton]

3NT, because I think that it is most likely where we should be, and pd may well not know it.

 

If you bid 3C/3D, if pd doesn't have a hard heart stopper (probable), he may bid 4C or 4D.

 

My second choice would be 3C, third 3D. This is a tough problem with no good bid.

 

Peter

[hrothgar]

I can live with many bids, but I really dislike 3♦. No fake suits in competitive auctions, please, unless you want to play 5♦X on a 4-3 fit.

 

Arend

Competive auctions are a pain in the ass.

 

As you lose bidding space, some bids will necessarily lose definition. Consider the following series of auctions:

 

1♣ - (1♥) - X

1♣ - (2♥) - X

1♣ - (3♥) - X

1♣ - (4♥) - X

1♣ - (5♥) - X

 

As the level of the overcall gets higher and high, the definition of the overcall slowly collapses from "Negative" to "cards".

 

In much the same the manner, when RHO bid 2♥, he used up a bunch of valuable real estate. Something has to give. One option would be to use a first step or even first/second step responses as a garbage bid. Make these responses artificial and forcing and layer a fairly complex response schedule on top. The advantahe to this type of system is that the higher level bids retain much more definition.

 

Alternatively, you can decide to spread the wealth. All the bids get a little less well defined. In this case, a (hypothetical) 3♦ rebid wouldn't necessarily require 4 Diamonds.

 

I suspect that the first treatment is better, however, I wouldn't assume that this is necessarily standard.

[Gerben42]

2NT good bad, this being the "good" case that never happens.

[han]

My preference is as follows:

 

3H

3NT

 

 

3D??

3C???

 

3H will likely get us to 3NT, but not necessarily from partner's side (I expect partner to bid 3♠ most of the time).

[cherdano]

I can live with many bids, but I really dislike 3♦. No fake suits in competitive auctions, please, unless you want to play 5♦X on a 4-3 fit.

 

Arend

Competive auctions are a pain in the ass.

 

As you lose bidding space, some bids will necessarily lose definition. Consider the following series of auctions:

 

1♣ - (1♥) - X

1♣ - (2♥) - X

1♣ - (3♥) - X

1♣ - (4♥) - X

1♣ - (5♥) - X

 

As the level of the overcall gets higher and high, the definition of the overcall slowly collapses from "Negative" to "cards".

 

In much the same the manner, when RHO bid 2♥, he used up a bunch of valuable real estate. Something has to give. One option would be to use a first step or even first/second step responses as a garbage bid. Make these responses artificial and forcing and layer a fairly complex response schedule on top. The advantahe to this type of system is that the higher level bids retain much more definition.

 

Alternatively, you can decide to spread the wealth. All the bids get a little less well defined. In this case, a (hypothetical) 3♦ rebid wouldn't necessarily require 4 Diamonds.

 

I suspect that the first treatment is better, however, I wouldn't assume that this is necessarily standard.

Richard, how comes the rest of us can live without making free bids in a 3 card suit in competition?

 

Btw, standard does EXACTLY what you are suggesting (except for the complex follow-ups). When you can pass, 1st and 2nd step (AKA pass and double, or TMFA) cover a lot of ground, and help us keep other bids sane.

 

Also, your analysis misses an important part. It is the shapely hands that you have to define quickly, because likely any bidding space you preciously conserved will be lost before partner has bid, because nasty LHO will bounce the auction anyway. Hence you can't afford to have shapely bids not show shapely hands. Are you seriously suggesting that after 1C (P) 1S (2H) 3D (4H) partner can't raise to 5D because 3D could have been a 3-card suit?

 

Arend

[Double !]

3♣

 

There is a reason why good/bad 2NT was created. There were also reasons why big club or diamond systems were created. This is classic case in point.

 

DHL

[han]

Question for the 3♦ bidders: what's the advantage of 3♦ over 3♥?

 

Question for the G/B 2NT-players: is 3C now forcing?

[microcap]

Here's what happened:

 

Rex bid 3NT as did the plurality of voters. My dummy was [hv=d=n&v=n&s=sk10xxxxhxxxdjxxcx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv].

 

3 NT was a disaster was clubs broke 6-0. Down three, and would have been more had the opening leader merely led his partner's suit.

 

I think 3 NT is a godawful masterminding bid, and frankly I was shocked that Rex would make such a technically lousy bid! [that is more my department!] He of course defended it to the death, claiming that with 18 HCP opposite my supposed 6 it was the most likely game. [the same argument as pbleighton]

 

Inquiry's first post is absolutely right on---anyone who voted for 3 NT should read it.

 

With horrible club spots, a singleton in my bid suit, and only a single stopper in theirs, there is no reason to think there is a game in this hand. The only 6 point hand that can make 3NT MUST have the A♠ and q♣, and even then you are down if the Q♣ is singleton. I could have hit with KQJxxx, xx, Kxx, x and you still dont make 3NT on the simple heart lead.

 

The other clue was right in the beginning, when I mentioned that opps were weak. When RHO bids 2 ♥, it was tantamount to a borderline 2♣ opener LOL So catering to my possible very weak hand is the correct call.

 

Any defense from the 3NT bidders? ;)

[bid_em_up]

Neither side vulnerable, playing a team match against very weak opposition.

 

You deal and hold:

Dealer: South Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ 6 ♥ A83 ♦ AQ7 ♣ AKJ543

 

You open 1♣, LHO passes, Partner bids 1♠, RHO overcalls 2♥.

 

You are playing 2/1 with a top limit of 16 HCP for 1 NT.

 

What do you rebid and why?

 

I gave a wide range of choices just for the heck of it.   :D  :lol:

When I initially looked at this hand a few days ago, I really wanted to bid 3H asking for a heart stop (or partial stop). And, if your partnership uses 3H to specifically asks about a heart stop in this auction, then that is what I would bid. Unfortunately, one thing that I havent seen anyone address, after a little more thought, partner rates to take this as some form of cuebid agreeing spades at this point in the auction.

 

While others may think that 3D is a reasonable alternative, I do not. How are you going to handle a 4D raise? If your partnership style is to bypass a 4 card diamond suit in favor of a four card major, this certainly could happen. Are you willing to play 5C or 5D?

 

Rex's bid of 3N on his own, is a gross overevaluation of his own values. His suit is dependent upon a fit for 3N to begin to stand a chance. Any partial heart stop in partners hand will be wasted, as he has just wrong sided the contract. I would hope that if my partners hold Kxx Qxx xx xxxx (which is really about all that is needed for 3N to have some play from his side of the table), they would realize this and bid 3N over 3C without me having to bid 3H every time.

 

I finally decided that the lesser of all evils was just to bid 3C and pray partner can do the right thing.

 

Here's what happened:

The only 6 point hand that can make 3NT MUST have the A♠ and q♣, and even then you are down if the Q♣ is singleton.

 

I disagree with this assessment. Give partner as little as Kxxx xx xxx 10xxx (and he must have more than this for his 1♠ response) and 3N will at least have a reasonable play (expecting the diamond finesse to work). The real key to the hand is how good of a fit does partner have for clubs, as opposed to what values does he have. Since by freely bidding 3C, you should show 6+ good clubs (and a decent hand), partner is better placed to decide what to do. If he has a club fit, he can bid 3N with a heart stop of his own or bid 3H to ask if you have one.

[HeartA]

I can live with many bids, but I really dislike 3♦. No fake suits in competitive auctions, please, unless you want to play 5♦X on a 4-3 fit.

 

Arend

agree

[bid_em_up]

Here's what happened:

 

Rex bid 3NT as did the plurality of voters. My dummy was [hv=d=n&v=n&s=sk10xxxxhxxxdjxxcx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv].

 

3 NT was a disaster was clubs broke 6-0. Down three, and would have been more had the opening leader merely led his partner's suit.

Oh, and another thing. Whats up with the 1♠ response? Do you not play WJS?

 

Even if you dont, I am strongly inclined to pass this hand type and then bid 1S if it goes X p p (converting to penalty).

[neilkaz]

I'm a 3C bidder. It is a bit of an underbid, but the hand maybe missfit. If PD can bid one spade holding what he has, then 3NT is just a guess, and not so likely to be a favorite opposite other mins.

 

3C gives PD a chance to aid further in the auction. .. neilkaz ..

[Codo]

Maybe no 3 NT bidder realiszed, that you bid 1 Spade depending on holding 13 cards. We thought, that you may have some values.

And if you want to bid on nothing, then you should use WJS.

 

There are million of hands, where you can make 3 NT without the ace of spade or the queen of clubs.

F.E: most hands, where you have a heart stopper or three hearts and the hook in Club is on. Most hands, where you have a club fit like xxxx.