Uncomfortable high-level misfit auction

[kfgauss]

Playing imps at favorable, you pick up (in 3rd seat):

 

K107542 Q98 -- A653.

 

Partner opens:

 

1D - 1S

2H - 2S

3C - 3S

4D - ?

 

What now?

 

Feel free to comment on previous bids as well, but in any case try to give an opinion on the current bid as well even if you disagree.

 

Notes: Style is mostly standard, 3C just a generic GF.

 

Andy

[Winstonm]

I would have bid 3H over 3C - I can't have 4 else I would have raised 2H. Now I will do the same thing. I really don't think partner is 544 in this auction and suspect more like 0463. I really think partner is angling for a diamond raise on singleton honor and I want to discourage as much as I can by bidding 4H.

[neilkaz]

Difficult hand as most high level missfits are. PD reversed and then forced game with 3C so he has to havea bit more than a min reverse. You have clubs stopped and the ace can be held up if needed. I don't think PD has more than 4 hearts or he'd have bid 3H on his 3rd turn. For that reason I prefer 3NT rather than 3H on your 3rd turn.

 

I wouldn't rebid 3S on my third turn since how many times do you want to rebid a weakish 6 cards suit. After 3S PD having 1 or 0 spades and no club stop is stuck or has to gamble that you stop clubs enough to allow 3NT to make.

 

So I try to buy the auction with 3NT..however, now you cannot bid 3NT so you should bid 4H (4th turn) and hope to make the 4-3 Heart fit game and suspecting PD has 17-19 HCP it should have good chances. I won't bid 4NT and hope PD passes since I fear he's too likely to wonder why you bypassed 3NT and won't pass.

 

I suspect that if you bid 3NT on your 3rd turn it is a favorite to make. .. neilkaz ..

[pbleighton]

"Difficult hand as most high level missfits are. PD reversed and then forced game with 3C so he has to havea bit more than a min reverse. You have clubs stopped and the ace can be held up if needed. I don't think PD has more than 4 hearts or he'd have bid 3H on his 3rd turn. For that reason I prefer 3NT rather than 3H on your 3rd turn.

 

I wouldn't rebid 3S on my third turn since how many times do you want to rebid a weakish 6 cards suit. After 3S PD having 1 or 0 spades and no club stop is stuck or has to gamble that you stop clubs enough to allow 3NT to make.

 

So I try to buy the auction with 3NT..however, now you cannot bid 3NT so you should bid 4H (4th turn) and hope to make the 4-3 Heart fit game and suspecting PD has 17-19 HCP it should have good chances. I won't bid 4NT and hope PD passes since I fear he's too likely to wonder why you bypassed 3NT and won't pass.

 

I suspect that if you bid 3NT on your 3rd turn it is a favorite to make. .. neilkaz .. "

 

Agree with the above.

 

Peter

[kfgauss]

Given the replies, I'll add something else to ponder:

 

What does 4H now mean?

 

(Or for that matter, most of my other possible bids.)

 

----------

 

Also, Winstonm seems to have missed that 3C was an (artifical) generic GF.

 

Andy

[mike777]

Object to 2s, that is weakish 8 minus for me. I bid 3 clubs game force over 2H reverse.

 

If partner rebids 3D over 3clubs I will rebid 3S, what now? (I can understand rebidding 3nt and not 3s here). Pard knowing you have 9+hcp may be willing to bid 3nt from his side and gamble you have a club stop for your 3club bid now.

 

If partner rebids 4D over my 3S now I will rebid 4S, I doubt I have a natural 4h bid option over 4D :lol:.

 

BTW 3d would infer less than 3 spades so my rebid of 3S would infer 6 card suit but not great spades, very often. With 6 great spades I would bid 3Spades over 2H. This may make it easier for him to rebid 3nt over 3S on a total misfit.

[TheoKole]

By the time that opener reverses to 2 hearts I have my antenna way way up for a misfit auction, I will bid 2 spades to maybe get a preference with 2 card support. (After I refuse a fit my partner should be aware of this possibility also).

 

After the 3 clubs bid, I definitely downgrade my hand to bid 3 hearts, the spade suit is worthless against a probable void in partner.

 

I do not want to play 3 NT on a misfit hand, 3 hearts is probably a good enough spot on a 4-3 fit, probably played on a cross-ruff.

 

Theo

[kfgauss]

Mike -- we play that 2S is unlimited. Not sure what's best, but that's how we play.

 

Theo -- 3C was GF.

 

Also, why bid 3H with only 3? Last round 3H would've been GF, and a non-GF hand with 4 hearts but without 5 spades would bid 2N..3H, and a non-GF hand with 4 hearts and 5+ spades would probably bid 2S..3H. I'm not sure it's reasonable to bid 3H on this auction without 4, but apparently this opinion is in the minority.

 

Andy

[mikeh]

I would have bid 3♥ over 3♣, and I think it is 100% clear: no other bid is even remotely attractive.

 

Why 3♥?

 

1. Partner can now bid 3♠ on a doubleton honour... which would be music to my ears

 

2. Partner can bid 3N and I will pass comfortably

 

3. Partner can raise to 4♥. Anyone who exclaims that this has to be wrong because we only have a 4-3 fit is not (yet) a bridge player. There is no rule against playing a 4-3 fit... And, if 3N is best, as will often be the case on other layouts, 3♥ hardly bars that contract. After all, partner won't play is for longer ♥ than we actually hold.

 

PS: I agree with 2♠: that call is unlimited, and NOT a sign of weakness, altho it doesn't promise strength either.

[mike777]

Just asking but is this 2s....any range causing problems?

 

For me limited to around 8 hcp, 5+spades.

[mikeh]

Just asking but is this 2s....any range causing problems?

 

For me limited to around 8 hcp, 5+spades.

no:)) none at all, and, indeed, I would very strongly expect that the converse is true

[kfgauss]

I would have bid 3♥ over 3♣, and I think it is 100% clear: no other bid is even remotely attractive.

 

Why 3♥?

 

1. Partner can now bid 3♠ on a doubleton honour... which would be music to my ears

 

2. Partner can bid 3N and I will pass comfortably

 

3. Partner can raise to 4♥. Anyone who exclaims that this has to be wrong because we only have a 4-3 fit is not (yet) a bridge player. There is no rule against playing a 4-3 fit... And, if 3N is best, as will often be the case on other layouts, 3♥ hardly bars that contract. After all, partner won't play is for longer ♥ than we actually hold.

 

PS: I agree with 2♠: that call is unlimited, and NOT a sign of weakness, altho it doesn't promise strength either.

You make a good case for 3♥.

 

If partner expects a 5♠-4♥ hand, though, you'll essentially never get a 3♠ bid on a doubleton honor or a 3N bid unless partner happens to have only 3 hearts too.

 

It does seem reasonable to play that it can be only 3 and have partner originally account for that (you then correct to 4♥ if you actually had 4). There is a slight flaw in this plan, though: partner may have had only 3♥ (I get queasy when either partner can have 3!). Then you can't afford to correct over partner's 3NT, e.g., when you do have 4. (Yes, it won't be so terrible and will sometimes be right, but it won't always, or really even most of the time, be right. When it is right, you'll likely find it if 3♥ promised 4 anyways.)

 

Of course, maybe this is not so big an issue and finding the correct place to play on hands like the one above is more important.

 

Andy

[hatchett]

I think 3♥ is clear at your third turn and it must show 3 card support. With 4 card ♥ support you must raise hearts directly rather than rebid a 5 card ♠ suit. If partner happens to be 33 in the majors for his reverse say a very strong 3316 then you will reach 4♠ anyway after you have raised ♥s.

[whereagles]

Agree that 3♥ 3rd round would probably have been better (3♠ = all eggs in 1 basket).

 

Agree that 2♠ is probably better used as forcing & unlimited (there are 2 schools on this, though).

 

Because of the failure to bid 3♥ earlier I fear 4♥ might be taken as a diamond cue, so I won't bid that. Insisting on spades would be ridiculous, so I'm left with one choice: 4NT.

[kfgauss]

I think 3♥ is clear at your third turn and it must show 3 card support. With 4 card ♥ support you must raise hearts directly rather than rebid a 5 card ♠ suit. If partner happens to be 33 in the majors for his reverse say a very strong 3316 then you will reach 4♠ anyway after you have raised ♥s.

Not to seem crazy by continually arguing against this bid even though it both works well on this hand and is the choice of almost everyone else, but:

 

1. 3♥ immediately would be GF

 

2. 2N..3♥ is a good way to bid non-GF hands with 4 hearts, but...

 

3. If partner is 3-3 in the majors you'll really have preferred to have rebid your spades if you're 5-4, followed by bidding hearts. (Possibly the spade fit is findable over 2N..3H anyways, though, in which case that's the way to go presumably, and my ramblings are crazy.)

 

Andy

[mikeh]

 

It does seem reasonable to play that it can be only 3 and have partner originally account for that (you then correct to 4♥ if you actually had 4). There is a slight flaw in this plan, though: partner may have had only 3♥ (I get queasy when either partner can have 3!). Then you can't afford to correct over partner's 3NT, e.g., when you do have 4. (Yes, it won't be so terrible and will sometimes be right, but it won't always, or really even most of the time, be right. When it is right, you'll likely find it if 3♥ promised 4 anyways.)

 

Of course, maybe this is not so big an issue and finding the correct place to play on hands like the one above is more important.

 

Andy

The ONLY time opener should consider a reverse into a 3 card ♥ suit is with 3 card ♠ support: he has to have a place to go if he is raised. Thus after the 2♠ 3♣ sequence, you KNOW that he lacks 3♠ and thus he 100% has 4♥.

[mikeh]

Not to seem crazy by continually arguing against this bid even though it both works well on this hand and is the choice of almost everyone else, but:

 

1. 3♥ immediately would be GF

 

2. 2N..3♥ is a good way to bid non-GF hands with 4 hearts, but...

 

3. If partner is 3-3 in the majors you'll really have preferred to have rebid your spades if you're 5-4, followed by bidding hearts. (Possibly the spade fit is findable over 2N..3H anyways, though, in which case that's the way to go presumably, and my ramblings are crazy.)

 

Andy

Sorry, I don't understand your points.

 

Firstly, it is wrong to worry about partner holding 3♠. No one in the world would suppress 3 card support after 2♠ by you over 2♥. Even if, for reasons that escape me, one would want to go through an artificial 3♣ bid before raising ♠, opener will INSIST upon ♠ after you did not raise ♥.

 

Secondly, and related to the first point, responder should raise ♥ immediately with 4 cards, and not rebid ♠ unless, say, 7=4 in the majors. Which explains why opener will insist upon ♠ with 3 card support: if responder shows 4 ♥ after rebidding 2♠, opener will know that the ♠ fit is superior if he holds 3 card ♠ support.

 

 

Thirdly, if responder has a 54 major hand and wants to slow the auction down, due to extreme weakness, he can (should) bid 2N over 2♥ and then, if opener bids 3♣ or 3♦, bid 3♥, to show 4 with a less than gf hand opposite a reverse. Note that by showing 4♥, responder confirms possession of at least 5 ♠: with 4=4, one responds 1♥, not 1♠. Thus even if opener has a 3 card ♥ suit, he must (see an earlier post by me) hold 3♠ and so the 5-3 fit will be found.

 

Your ramblings are not crazy, but your concerns, on this hand, are ill-founded :)

[mike777]

Mike -- we play that 2S is unlimited. Not sure what's best, but that's how we play.

 

Theo -- 3C was GF.

 

Andy

Let me see if I understand what you guys are playing:

2s by responder is any range and unlimited? I assume that means no limits?

3c=game force across from an any range responder hand?

 

Ok I cannot wait to see opener's hand that opens 1D and not 2 clubs but can force to game with what seems no fit and responder having an any range hand?

[bid_em_up]

Also, Winstonm seems to have missed that 3C was an (artifical) generic GF.

 

Andy

You really dont believe this do you?

 

The GF was created by the reverse. Why on earth would you create a GF again??!!

 

3C should show a 0-4-5-4 hand. Cannot be 0-4-6-3, as this hand should bid 3D, not 3C.

 

EDIT: Scratch this....I see where you are the original thread poster now, and while in your system, this may hold true (and it was not stated in the first post), it still makes no sense.

[mike777]

Also, Winstonm seems to have missed that 3C was an (artifical) generic GF.

 

Andy

You really dont believe this do you?

 

The GF was created by the reverse. Why on earth would you create a GF again??!!

 

3C should show a 0-4-5-4 hand. Cannot be 0-4-6-3, as this hand should bid 3D, not 3C.

Ok why does a reverse create a game force?

 

I assume we respond very often with less than 6 hcp and if opener is vcid in spades I cannot wait to see opener's forcing game hand that could not open 2clubs and risked playing 1D.

[bid_em_up]

Also, Winstonm seems to have missed that 3C was an (artifical) generic GF.

 

Andy

You really dont believe this do you?

 

The GF was created by the reverse. Why on earth would you create a GF again??!!

 

3C should show a 0-4-5-4 hand. Cannot be 0-4-6-3, as this hand should bid 3D, not 3C.

Ok why does a reverse create a game force?

 

I assume we respond very often with less than 6 hcp and if opener is vcid in spades I cannot wait to see opener's forcing game hand that could not open 2clubs and risked playing 1D.

Why would you assume that? If your style is considered "pretty much standard" then as responder, you certainly should be expected to hold 5+ hcp.

 

Given a standard reverse, this auction is supposed to be game forcing....and to use your own question, why create a GF auction with 3C, when you didnt open 2C?

[mike777]

Also, Winstonm seems to have missed that 3C was an (artifical) generic GF.

 

Andy

You really dont believe this do you?

 

The GF was created by the reverse. Why on earth would you create a GF again??!!

 

3C should show a 0-4-5-4 hand. Cannot be 0-4-6-3, as this hand should bid 3D, not 3C.

Ok why does a reverse create a game force?

 

I assume we respond very often with less than 6 hcp and if opener is vcid in spades I cannot wait to see opener's forcing game hand that could not open 2clubs and risked playing 1D.

Why would you assume that? If your style is considered "pretty much standard" then as responder, you certainly should be expected to hold 5+ hcp.

 

Given a standard reverse, this auction is supposed to be game forcing....and to use your own question, why create a GF auction with 3C, when you didnt open 2C?

At fav vul I thought Fred G said he would respond to 1D with any hand with at least zero hcp, but I may be mistaken. I know Kokish would. In any case are you saying most top class players promise 5+ hcp over 1D?

 

Are you saying top class players pass with:

Axxxx...xxxx...void....xxxx? or even less?

Kxxxxx....Jxxxx..void...xx?

 

It was not stated we play wjs, I do not, so I assumed responder may even have some weak hand with long spades and short hearts?

[awm]

Despite the complaints people are making about the methods, they are not unreasonable. Most of us do not play reverses as game forcing (and you have a lot of issues bidding hands in the 16-18 hcp range if you do). Playing 2♠ as natural and forcing one round but aspecific about strength is pretty much standard among north american experts (I understand that it appears to be common practice amongst ACOL players for certain calls like 2♠ in this auction to be non-forcing). After 1♦-1♠-2♥-2♠, many of opener's bids are non-forcing: after all 2♠ did not promise extras and the reverse wasn't forcing to game, so we need a way out of the auction. What is opener to do with a game-force hand with no spade fit and no club stopper? For example:

 

Ax

AKxx

AKQxxx

x

 

A

AKxx

AKJxx

xxx

 

Using 3♣ as an artificial game force here is quite reasonable. Holding 1453 or even 0454 it seems like opener can just bid 3NT (this will not show a balanced hand since 18-19 flat would have bid 2NT over 1♠ and not 2♥).

 

In any case, responder's first real choice in the auction comes at third turn. I think 3♠ was a bad call. Basically the options are:

 

3♦ shows a moderate fit (could be doubleton). Obviously this is out.

3♥ should show three-card support. With four hearts and a good hand it's better to make a forcing 3♥ raise over 2♥ (opener can always revert to spades if he somehow has a 3361 hand). With a weak hand including four hearts responder can bid 4♥ over 3♣ (fast arrival, slam is pretty much out of the picture).

3♠ shows six spades, but they really should be six good ones. With a hand like the second example (stiff spade honor, nothing in clubs) opener is pretty much endplayed into raising.

3NT shows a club stopper.

 

I think this hand is really a choice between 3♥ and 3NT. The 3♥ call seems more flexible, as it allows opener to revert to spades with a doubleton or bid 3NT (having shown doubt) with something like Qx in clubs. If opener really has nothing in clubs then 3NT is not necessarily going to be a great contract.

[neilkaz]

awm's post here is really good. Thx for your detailed insight. .. neilkaz ..

[bid_em_up]

Also, Winstonm seems to have missed that 3C was an (artifical) generic GF.

 

Andy

You really dont believe this do you?

 

The GF was created by the reverse. Why on earth would you create a GF again??!!

 

3C should show a 0-4-5-4 hand. Cannot be 0-4-6-3, as this hand should bid 3D, not 3C.

Ok why does a reverse create a game force?

 

I assume we respond very often with less than 6 hcp and if opener is vcid in spades I cannot wait to see opener's forcing game hand that could not open 2clubs and risked playing 1D.

Why would you assume that? If your style is considered "pretty much standard" then as responder, you certainly should be expected to hold 5+ hcp.

 

Given a standard reverse, this auction is supposed to be game forcing....and to use your own question, why create a GF auction with 3C, when you didnt open 2C?

At fav vul I thought Fred G said he would respond to 1D with any hand with at least zero hcp, but I may wrong. I know Kokish would. In any case are you saying most top class players promise 5+ hcp over 1D?

 

Are you saying top class players pass with:

Axxxx...xxxx...void....xxxx? or even less?

Kxxxxx....Jxxxx..void...xx?

 

It was not stated we play wjs, I do not, so I assumed responder may even have some weak hand with long spades and short hearts?

Mike,

 

I dont care what other "top" players do. I do know what works for me. Would Fred respond 1S over a 1D opening on Axxx xx xxx xxxx? I dont know, nor do I really care, since it is highly unlikely that Fred will ever be my partner anyway, and my partners are not usually as competent as his are :). I do know that I would not.

 

Imo, I have found that responding on Axxxx xxxx VOID xxxx rates to lead to trouble more often than not. The next bid you are likely to hear is either 3D or 2N, now how happy are you? Pass initially describes your hand perfectly and may in fact be the last makeable spot. If it goes all pass, so be it, but most times opps will reopen, and now if you enter the bidding, partner will know you are competing on little or no values instead of actually attempting to place some real values in your hand. Why try to rescue partner before you are actually in trouble, only to make matters worse?

 

Given that many partnerships will play leb. after reverse, it is wiser to play the 2S call as a bust hand with long spades and no pure fit for either of openers suit, and use the sequence 1D-1S-2H-2N-3C-3S to show a non-fitting spade hand with values. This way, you can play 2S a level cheaper using this sequence opposite A AKxx AKQxx xxx for example (opener should pass on the known misfit). The same would apply for the sequence 1C-1H-2D-2H (long hearts, bust), only now you also have the additional call of 2S (instead of 2H) to show certain other hand types, in addition to the leb sequences/inferences that are available.