basic SAYC

[jocdelevat]

Hello everyone

I play basic SAYC and my level is beginner-intermediate. I had 2 boards where basic biding still confuse me.

 

[hv=d=e&v=n&s=sa3hj42dcakqj8654]133|100|Scoring: MP

pass your bid[/hv]

 

This hand has 9 tricks do you open 2c? I thought openning 2c witk 9 tricks is old fashion bridge.Do you recomend to open with 9 tricks 2c or just with 23hcp?

 

[hv=d=e&v=n&s=sa3hj42dcakqj8654]133|100|Scoring: MP

pass your bid[/hv]

 

On this board I answer 1h to my parner openning 1c. He jumped to 3nt then told me that I should pass with 5 points(he had long clubs). Now I recognize that I do not have minimum for a response but can I pass with just 3 small clubs. I thought a minor openning in SAYC should not be pass if less than 4 or 5 cards support.

 

Thank you in advance for your advice

Best regards

Jocdelevat

[helene_t]

The first hand is certainly not a standard 2♣ opening. You excpect to have two defensive tricks and that's not enough. A 2♣ opening encourages opps to preempt and partner to double them for penalty.

 

However, since you have only one suit, your hand is easy to describe after a 2♣ opening. Some people do it, and there are some good players among them. FWIW, I would consider a 6♣ opening. But the textbook opening is 1♣.

 

The second hand can pass 1♣. It's not so far from having response values so 1♦ or 1♥ is not necesarily bad. But you certainly do not need club tollerance when you pass 1♣. Consider these possibilities:

1) Partner can have a balanced 12-14. In that case 1♣ may not be the best partscore, but the board belongs to the opponents. No double, no trouble. -100 is a good result. -200 or -300 may not be so good, but if you bid, partner may rebid 1NT and go just as much down, maybe doubled. Besides, if you pass, LHO may balance.

2) Partner has 18-19 balanced. Again, 1♣ may not be the best partscore, but if you bid, partner rebids 2NT which is probably worse.

3) Partner can have real clubs. 1♣ is fine. If you bid, partner will rebid 2♣ or 3♣ which may be less fine.

 

So no matter what partner has, passing with a weak hand rates to give the best results. You can bid with 4 or 5 points if you have length in one or both majors and hope for game if partner has a fit, but in general partner will assume 6+ points if you bid.

[Finch]

On the first one, most experts would say you need both 9 playing tricks AND good defence to open 2C, so would not open 2C on your sample hand but rather 1C. However, you will indeed see many people opening 2C on this type of hand, and then guessing at a high level whether to pull partner's penalty double or not.

 

On the second hand, it is not obviously wrong either to pass or to bid 1H. You can happily pass a 1 minor opening from partner without 4 or 5 cards support with no high cards: the textbooks say you need 6 HCP to respond to partner's opening bid however many cards you have in support for partner's opening, and that is the textbook your partner had read. Everybody playing SAYC would pass a 1C opening holding, say, Kxxx xxx xxx xxx.

 

Modern players tend to need rather less to respond, and a lot of people would respond 1H on your sample hand anyway so I would say both you and your partner are right, and it isn't worth worrying about.

 

There is a strong trend not to pass partner's (possibly short) 1m opening when you have a very distributional hand with shortage in his suit: everyone would bid 1S over 1C holding Axxxxx xxx xxx x (apart for those for whom this is a, conventionally weak, 2S response). Some would also respond holding Q10xxxx xxx xxx x. This isn't (yet) standard at all - standard is a pass - but don't be surprised to see partners doing it.

[mike777]

Repeating my rule for opening 2clubs here:

 

With long major 9 playing tricks and 4 quick tricks

With long minor 10 playing tricks and 4 quick tricks

22 hcp with balanced hand.

 

Quick tricks;

2=AK of same suit

1.5=AQ of same suit

1=A or KQ of same suit

.5=Kx

 

In this posted hand you have a long minor with only 9 playing tricks and 3 Quick tricks.

[EricK]

On the first hand you have already been told the downsides of opening 2♣. To balance the situation, I shall tell you the downsides of opening 1♣ instead.

 

Firstly, assuming the opponents don't bid, you don't have an easy rebid over most responses by partner, 3♣ is NF and obviously risky; 3NT could end up looking quite foolish with two suits wide open; a fake reverse (2♥) is risky at the best of times, but doubly so when the second suit is very weak and the disparity in suit lengths is so great; 4♣ is usually played as showing some sort of fit for partner's suit; 5♣ is probably the best, but it gives up almost all hope of finding a good slam.

 

Secondly, if LHO pre-empts wildly and partner doubles for penalty, you will feel compelled to pull because you haven't given partner any idea about the playing strength of your hand. Indeed, your best chance of correctly penalising the opps at a high level comes if you open 2♣ and happen to get a later chance to show your long suit.

 

This doesn't mean that it is correct to open 2♣, but I don't think it is as obviously wrong as others are saying.

[barmar]

The usual reason for opening 2♣ is that you can probably make a game even if partner has a hand that would pass an opening 1 bid -- you're worried about the auction going 1whatever - AllPass. But when you have a hand with just average strength and freakish distribution, this is close to impossible. There's probably at least 15 HCP between LHO and partner's hands, and also some distribution, so one of them is going to bid, or RHO will reopen. If you get left in 1♣, something very strange is going on (maybe someone missorted their hand).

 

As ErickK said, rebids with this hand are tricky. In general, standard methods don't handle freaks too well. Which is OK, because they don't come up so often that you need detailed methods for them. If partner responds 1♦, I would probably rebid 3NT. If he responds 1♠, I'd be torn between 3♣ and 5♣ (4♣ has a common meaning: 6♣ and 4♠); the latter could easily be off if the opponents have 3 top ♥ tricks). The really difficult decision comes if partner bid 1♥; you could easily have an 8-card fit there, so you'd like to show support and a great hand, but jumping to 3♥ or splintering with 4♦ should promise 4-card support. But I've seen people do this with hands like this and get away with it.

[neilkaz]

I open 1C here and would like more HCP and at least 1/2 a trick more to open 2C when my suit is a minor.

 

After 1C I jump rebid 3NT if the response was 1D, raise 1NT to 3NT and jump rebid 3C after 1M. If PD continues after 3C, I can bid 3H to show my 3 card support and should he rebid 3S after spades I'll raise to 4S even if we have a 5-2 fit since he shouldn't have a weak 5 carder.

 

With the responding hand given, I prefer to pass 1C, but give me a 5th H and I bid 1H. I'd not criticize PD uf he bids 1H.

 

With the two hands given 3NT is set on a D lead most likely and 5C depends on having the opps lead H (not likely) or some real good luck in H.

 

.. neilkaz ..

[jocdelevat]

TO: EricK & Barmar

 

What you describe thats was happend at table I open 1c my p bid 1h opps double then i do not know what to bid to be forcing so I bid 5c. My p was expert and he bid 6nt with a strong hand (5cards suit on hearts with aq, k10s and Ace d) made 7nt.

 

Thank you again.

best regards

Jocdelevat

[EricK]

The opp's double actually makes it slightly easier for you, in that you have a few extra bids (you can redouble now, or you can cue-bid an opponent's suit later).

 

Although with a pick-up partner you will not have agreements about the meanings of these so I am not claiming you should have done better on this hand!

[Winstonm]

Lots of offense and little defense - it looks like a good time to apply the pressure with an opening 5C bid.

 

Second hand pass or 1D or 1H are all acceptable IMO. I tend to pass as my shape is not all that great.