2c opener and developments

[helene_t]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sat764h852dtct764&w=sq9hkt9764dqj95c9&e=skj5hjdak763cakqj&s=s832haq3d842c8532]399|300|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

- Pass 2♣ Pass

2♥ Pass 3♦ Pass

4♦ Pass 4NT Pass

5♣ Pass 5♦ Pass

Pass Pass

 

Playing SAYC.

 

Oops sorry, it was MP. Cascade, is this a bug in LinConverter?

Edited June 27, 2006 by helene_t

[Codo]

You reached the top spot at imps, where is the problem?

For the bidding: I don`t know your exact definitions, so I cannot decide, if 2 ♥ promised extra strength.

[Walddk]

With a minor as one's longest suit, one should avoid opening 2♣ if there is any excuse whatsoever. There is here in my opinion, because a 4-loser hand with both minors often creates problems later in the auction. At IMPs you may be able to land on your feet, but at matchpoints the most important thing is to avoid 5 of a minor if 3NT is an option.

 

2♣ is a room consuming opening and is much more suited if you hold a long major or a balanced hand.

 

With the 2 hands shown here, I suggest the following auction:

 

1♦ - 1♥

3♣ - 3♦

3NT - pass

 

Opener is now almost always marked with a singleton heart, and responder's ♥K looks worthless with regard to a diamond slam. Therefore, he should pass. Replace ♥K with the ace, and I would continue with 4♦ over 3NT. Now 4♥ should be an unambiguous kickback rkcb.

 

That even allows the partnership to sign off in 4NT if for some reason responder decides to bid 4♦ with the actual, aceless hand.

 

Roland

[whereagles]

helene, announcing diamonds in the sequence

 

2♣ 2♥

3♦

 

should only be done with a hand that is clearly unfit for rebidding 2/3NT or that is very, very serious about a diamond slam. After a 2♣ opener, one can't use the same suit-showing rules that apply after a 1x opener. For this reason I would prefer a NT rebid after 2♥.

 

But even if 3♦ were to show one of the hand types I mentioned above, 4♦ seems a bit hasty. Maybe 3♥ were better (showing 6 cards), intending to support diamonds later if opener doesn't bid 3NT. But then again, maybe that should show better hearts, so perhaps 2♣-2♦ would have been better.

 

Anyway, all this confusion would be avoided if the opener was 1♦, but there certainly are ways to reach the good contract after 2♣.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I dont think, that the East hand is

strong enough for a 2C opening

with a minor.

 

3D should promise 9 playing tricks

and a 6 card suit.

Anyway you reached a cold game, and

thats in effect all that counts.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Walddk]

Anyway you reached a cold game, and

thats in effect all that counts.

Surely not at matchpoints, and it does read MP as I see it. In a strong field 600 would be a very poor score.

 

Roland

[han]

Clear 1♦ opener imo. I like the 2♥ response, compare the auctions 2C-2H-2S-3D with 2C-2S-3H.

[mcphee]

Can't open this hand 2C .

 

Repsonding 2H did not permit the strong hand to show what was going on. I see no reason to fall in love with the responding hand so fast. When the 2C hand is often 6 cards when suited what is the rush to place emphasis on this H suit?

 

Rolans suggested sequence looks sensible to me.

[han]

Repsonding 2H did not permit the strong hand to show what was going on.

Please explain how a 2H response is ever going to be in opener's way.

[hotShot]

I suggest the auction:

 

2♣ - 2♥ (♥ and not minimum)

2NT* - 3♦ or 3♥

3NT

 

* 22-23 HCP, (semi) balanced waiting for more information about partners hand. After partbner ♥ bid, you are no longer interested in a suit contract, and partner obviously has wasted ♥ values.

A stronger partner can make a slam try over 3NT.

[Codo]

I don`t like 2 ♣ because it tokok too much space and was not strong enough in terms of trick taking potential.

With any strong NT opening you had reached 4 Heart, which is much better at imps, but still not the tops spot.

 

I had prefered:

1 ♦ 2 ♥

3 ♣ 3 ♦

4 ♦ 4 ♠

4 NT

 

(2 Heart was weak and 3 Club natural and GF- 4 Diamond asked for KCs, 4 Spade showed zero and 4 NT is to play (5 Club had been the next inquiry)).

[cherdano]

I don`t like 2 ♣ because it tokok too much space and was not strong enough in terms of trick taking potential.

With any strong NT opening you had reached 4 Heart, which is much better at imps, but still not the tops spot.

 

I had prefered:

1 ♦ 2 ♥

3 ♣ 3 ♦

4 ♦ 4 ♠

4 NT

 

(2 Heart was weak and 3 Club natural and GF- 4 Diamond asked for KCs, 4 Spade showed zero and 4 NT is to play (5 Club had been the next inquiry)).

Not sure what "weak" means for you, but even playing constructive weak jump shifts (like 4-8) this hand might be a little strong, with 6-4 shape and 4-card support for opener's suit?

 

Arend

 

P.S.: As for my own preferred auction, I am with Roland.

[mike777]

Here is one rule for opening 2clubs, see how you like it.

 

With long major, 9 playing tricks, 4 Quick Tricks. Yes you may have the dreaded 2 suited forum hand and open 2 clubs.

With long minor, 10 playing tricks, 4 Quick Tricks. Yes you may have the dreaded 2 suited forum hand and open 2clubs.

22 hcp with balanced hand.

 

Prefer 2D response to show random A's or K's somewhere

Prefer 2H response to show zero A or K but unlimited small points

Prefer 2S to show 2 of top 3 spade honors with a long spade suit.

Prefer 2NT (heart substitute bid) to show 2 of top 3 Heart honors with a long heart suit.

 

With the posted forum hand I open 1D, you have long minor and enough quick tricks but do not have 10 playing tricks.

[helene_t]

Thanks for your support. My expert partner in an indy opened 2♣ and complained that 2♥ and 4♦ were bad bids.

[whereagles]

Your 'expert' pard might have been expecting a better suit for 2♥, but that certainly wasn't the reason for the bad score. In fact, he was the one who caused trouble for the strategic mistake of rebidding 3♦ on a hand better suited for a NT rebid.

 

I also don't think 4♦ is a bad bid. Pard (mis)bidding 3♦ on that, maybe, but otherwise not.

[mike777]

Thanks for your support. My expert partner in an indy opened 2♣ and complained that 2♥ and 4♦ were bad bids.

To be fair it is quite a range to open 1D with:

KJx..J...AKxxx ...AKQJ

and open 1 spade with:

AQ87xx...8xxx..T...KT

 

but what the heck.....B)

 

My teammates tell me it will make me learn to play the hands better. :)

[awm]

2♥ is questionable (some prefer to show 2 top honors in the suit) but I don't see how bidding 2♦ would've helped at all. The 4♦ bid seems quite clear.

 

It's very difficult to get to the right spot after opening 2♣ on a hand with both minors and I'd tend to avoid it if possible. The strong opening works best with hands including a five card major, or minor one-suiters, or big balanced hands. Three suiters and two suiters where the longest suit is a minor are awkward, and I tend to open the minor. Obviously I'd open 2♣ happily if the pointed suits were reversed.

 

Basically I agree with Mike777 on the criteria for opening 2♣. On his point about the wide-ranging one-level openings:

 

The range for opening 1M and 1m is different. It more often pays to open borderline hands with a primary major, because of the lower level needed for game, the higher descriptive value (playing 5cMs) and the preemptive value. The amount needed for the 2♣ opening with a primary major is correspondingly less. On the other hand, minor openings should be relatively sound and the upper end is higher.

 

Of course, personally I would not consider opening 1♠ on his example 9-count, but that's just me (I prefer fairly sound 1/2 seat openings in a standard-type system). I think Mike will routinely open with about 1-1.5 fewer points than I would need on the same shape, and that's okay as long as it's consistent.

[bid_em_up]

Thanks for your support. My expert partner in an indy opened 2♣ and complained that 2♥ and 4♦ were bad bids.

Personally, I think the worst call was 2♣. After that it becomes almost impossible to stop in 3N.

 

But it was also an individual and partner probably wanted to convey the fact that he has what he thinks is a big hand immediately. Note, it is only a big hand if some fit can be found, which is another reason not to open 2♣ allowing for more room to explore a fit. And if partner cannot scrape up a response to 1♦, game is unlikely (Yes, there could be hands where partner has the magic fit containing the spade A and nothing else and a diamond fit and it goes 1♦ all pass, however, I will take my chances that partner isnt holding that hand the majority of the time).

 

I, for one, am of the opinion that with positive values and a 6 card suit, you show it immediately over the 2♣ bid, so the 2♥ bid is ok by me. If you dont show it now, the auction will usually become too jammed to get across later in the auction.

 

Now for the next bad bid by opener, 3♦. He is really showing a one suited hand and a much better suit. Something along the lines of AKJ10xx. This diamond suit is dependent on a trump fit. Along with the others, I think that a 2N rebid would be more appropriate after the 2♥ positive response.

 

Even after this start, I think you will have a hard time staying out of either 5/6♦, as responder will now probably introduce their diamond suit (showing the hand pattern), and now the 2♣ opener will not be able to contain themselves as they will immediately jump to 4N over a 3♦ bid by responder. It is only if responder chooses to rebid 3♥ over 2N that you will be able to play in 3N.

 

I think a better auction would be 1♦-1♥-3♣-3♦-3N.