Playing SAYC. How many spades?

[jdeegan]

[hv=d=n&v=b&s=saq985h109d653cj102]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1♠-P-????[/hv]

 

Playing SAYC with reliable partner. No Bergen raises. How many spades and why?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

2S.

 

Either bid 2S or 4S, but 3S is not an

option, at least for me, your partner

may start a slam investigation and may

not stop below the 5 level.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Miron]

2♠

If partner has something more he can bid. I don't have anything special: the ♠Q is probably worthless in 5-5 spade fit and my distribution 5332 is not that great (compare it with 5332 with 5 other then spades).

[pbleighton]

3S is out - you are not invitational.

 

I would bid 4S. Weak, LOTT, plus you have nothing outside of spades. Many would not, however, with a 5322 shape. This is a style issue.

 

Peter

[han]

It may be right to bid 4S immediately, but you will often be too high. I'd rather bid 2S now and compete to 3S later.

[Gerben42]

Basically two approaches.

 

1. Bid 4♠ now.

 

2. Raise to 2♠ and when opponents compete, bid 3♠.

 

I would take the first one when NV, the second one vuln.

[hrothgar]

I think that this is a clear cut 2♠ bid...

 

Playing SAYC, 4♠ is a strong bid. You don't have anywhere near enough values to even consider this. Your choice (such that it is) is to bid 2♠ as a slight underbid or 3♠ (a pretty clear over bid).

 

I'll happily bid 2♠. Even if partner passes, there is a decent chance that the opponents will balance, allowing me to show extra length.

[inquiry]

Playing SAYC, 4♠ is a strong bid. You don't have anywhere near enough values to even consider this.

Cough, sputter.... 4M is a strong bid is SAYC? What kind of SAYC do you play?

 

4S here is defined by the ACBL in their SAYC booklet as: "usually five+ hearts, a singleton or void, and fewer than 10 HCP. So calling 4M Strong bid is SAYC is, well, odd.

 

This hand is not a 4S bid in SAYC primarily due to the horrible shape. The correct bid 2S (don't tell Marty Bergen or Larry Cohen -- but you don't need to make the LOTT bid just because you have 10 trumps).

[hrothgar]

Playing SAYC, 4♠ is a strong bid.  You don't have anywhere near enough values to even consider this.

Cough, sputter.... 4M is a strong bid is SAYC? What kind of SAYC do you play?

 

4S here is defined by the ACBL in their SAYC booklet as: "usually five+ hearts, a singleton or void, and fewer than 10 HCP. So calling 4M Strong bid is SAYC is, well, odd.

 

This hand is not a 4S bid in SAYC primarily due to the horrible shape. The correct bid 2S (don't tell Marty Bergen or Larry Cohen -- but you don't need to make the LOTT bid just because you have 10 trumps).

Damn....

 

I stand corrected...

[jdeegan]

[hv=d=n&v=b&n=s76432hq86dakcak3&s=saq985h109d653cj102]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1♠-P-2♠-P

P-Dbl-3♠(as planned)-P

P-P[/hv]

:( Disaster! I bid 2♠ planning on bidding more at the least provocation (following the LOTT). Partner (a BBO expert in an indy) passed. RHO balanced with a double. As planned, I bid 3♠ and it went all pass. Given that my 3♠ call indicated good, long trumps and a max, should partner have bid 4♠?

[pbleighton]

"As planned, I bid 3♠ and it went all pass. Given that my 3♠ call indicated good, long trumps and a max, should partner have bid 4♠?"

 

You showed any 4 trumps and a doubleton, no more. This was just LOTT competition. I don't blame your partner. I don't blame you, either, even though I would have gone to 4 initially. You choose the style you are comfortable with.

 

Personally, I HATE missing games, so I make bids many others wouldn't. Win some, lose some.

 

Peter

[mike777]

Basically two approaches.

 

1. Bid 4♠ now.

 

2. Raise to 2♠ and when opponents compete, bid 3♠.

 

I would take the first one when NV, the second one vuln.

I would reverse this and bid 4s vul and maybe only 2s nv but even nv games count for something.

 

btw pard might have opened 1nt but that is another post for another time.

 

edit: I think once I know this partner opens 1s with this type of hand I will just blast to 4spades.

[hrothgar]

[hv=d=n&v=b&n=s76432hq86dakcak3&s=saq985h109d653cj102]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1♠-P-2♠-P

P-Dbl-3♠(as planned)-P

P-P[/hv]

:( Disaster! I bid 2♠ planning on bidding more at the least provocation (following the LOTT). Partner (a BBO expert in an indy) passed. RHO balanced with a double. As planned, I bid 3♠ and it went all pass. Given that my 3♠ call indicated good, long trumps and a max, should partner have bid 4♠?

Couple comments here:

 

1. Lets assume that your partner chose to open 1N with his hand (many would argue that this is a reasonable bid). In this case, you'd plan to bid 2♥ and then pass a 2♠ advance by partner. In short, this hand (probably) isn't strong enough to try for game opposite your average 15-17 count. It could even be argued that the knoweldge that partner has a 5th spade degrades you're hand slightly. (You'd prefer that the ♠Q was in any other suit)

 

2. While I'd certainly want to be in game with these two hands, make some slight changes and things aren't nearly so nice. For example, what happens if partner had tabled

 

♠ Kxxxx

♥ xxx

♦ AKx

♣ AK

 

stronger hand, but game doesn't look nearly as good...

[mike777]

of course looking at all 4 hands is double dummy but I think once partner super accepts our transfer at imps many will just bid 4s, assuming a 1nt opening bid.

 

Bidding 4s after a 1s opening maybe a vul 30% or less but maybe they will make a defensive error type bid. I would just feel the need to protect my teammates at the other table with a 4s bid.

[sceptic]

3S is not an

option, at least for me, your partner

may start a slam investigation and may

not stop below the 5 level.

 

if he investigates slam, you have nothing more to say, so you should stop at 4 level

 

if you bid 2Spades you undervaklue your hand

 

and it is not to strong for a direct 4 level raise

 

so 3spades is the best bid

 

(this is based on my somewhat flawed ability)

[Winstonm]

I bid 2S for these reasons: In a 10-card fit the Q of spades might as well be a deuce, so I'm down to 5 HCP in a 9-loser hand with lousy shape.

 

If I'm NV verses Vul and RHO passes I might blast 4S as they can surely make something and -150 won't be too bad. :(

 

Winston

[HeartA]

I voted for 3S.

[EricK]

I bid 2♠. As others have said, there is too much of the strength in the ♠ suit and not enough strength or shape outside.

 

A follow up question:

 

What would it mean if you raise to 2♠, redouble after a balancing double, and then pull to 3♠?

[helene_t]

What would it mean if you raise to 2♠, redouble after a balancing double, and then pull to 3♠?

A 3-card raise, interested in penalizing one or two of the unbid suits but not the one the opps chose.

[P_Marlowe]

[hv=d=n&v=b&n=s76432hq86dakcak3&s=saq985h109d653cj102]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1♠-P-2♠-P

P-Dbl-3♠(as planned)-P

P-P[/hv]

:( Disaster! I bid 2♠ planning on bidding more at the least provocation (following the LOTT). Partner (a BBO expert in an indy) passed. RHO balanced with a double. As planned, I bid 3♠ and it went all pass. Given that my 3♠ call indicated good, long trumps and a max, should partner have bid 4♠?

Hi,

 

Just one comment:

 

Maybe 2S is conservative, but so is passing

over 2S as well, opener should make a move,

e.g. 2NT (or 3S asking for trump quality),

an invitation you will accept.

 

From an LTC point of few, you have a 5-5

fit and the Ace of spade, which allows you to

upgrade the hand.

 

4S instead of 3S is not an option, this would

mean, that your first 2S was wrong ... and I dont

see any reason to change course in the middle

of the bidding.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[whereagles]

Under the circumstances, 2♠ + 3♠ is certainly ok. However, 3♠ doesn't show good trumps and a max. That hand redoubles. 3♠ is long trumps, possibly with a side feature like a singleton.

[1eyedjack]

I would open 1NT (assuming in range) and refuse the transfer to Spades. Perhaps responder can then bid game. Perhaps not. But that is as close as I get.

[han]

Personally, I HATE missing games, so I make bids many others wouldn't. Win some, lose some.

 

Personally, I hate losing. Why make bridge more difficult than it already is?

 

In a 10-card fit the Q of spades might as well be a deuce, so I'm down to 5 HCP in a 9-loser hand with lousy shape.

 

Not this time!

 

Also note that when you have the spade queen, partner is unlikely to hold it and will have other values for her opening bid.

[pbleighton]

"Personally, I hate losing. Why make bridge more difficult than it already is?"

 

I find missing games conducive to losing :P

 

Peter

[barmar]

I find missing games conducive to losing :P

Going down does that, too.

 

Looking at both hands, it looks like game is only about 50%. You have two ♥ and one ♣ loser, so you have to pick up the ♠ by guessing whether to finesse or try to drop a singleton K.