pbleighton Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 MPs, unfavorable. indy, you hope you are playing some type of SAYC. You deal, and get A8xxxx-Axxxx-8-10. Pd has xx-8-AJ10x-AK8xxx. Our auction went 1S-2C-2H-3NT-4S. Down 2, 38%. Would you have opened my hand? What about our auction? How would you bid this in your favorite system? Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 I wouldn't have opened the 6-5 in the majors hand, though I know many people who would have done. However, if I did open it I would always, always, always rebid 2H. You only opened it because you have both majors, and now you conceal one of them? Partner could have had his red suits switched (move the honours around) and you would have played in 4S. Or is there a misprint? Partner's 3NT bid over 2S looks very odd with 2 low hearts. My auction would have been P 1C1S 2C2H 2SP Mind you, on a non-trump lead you might make 4S.Diamond lead (say)Ace of diamonds, diamond ruffAce of hearts, heart ruffDiamond ruffHeart ruffDiamond ruff (because they are 4-4, I hope)AK of clubs discarding a heartClub.... Now all you need is for either clubs 3-3 or RHO to be short in clubs and you have some hope of making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sceptic Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 1 spade 2 clubs2 hearts 3 diamonds3 hearts 3 spdes (?) or 3NTover 3 spades I bid 4 and over 3NT I bid 4hearts but then I am intermediate for ever LOL]I would love to pass BUT I know I could not resist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted June 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 "However, if I did open it I would always, always, always rebid 2H." Opps, that's what I did - I corrected the original post. And I got a trump lead. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 Hi, I would have passed, ... but I do this regulary,and it seems to work ok. My partner would have opened 2S (which is at this vul. not garbage) with the intention to rebidhearts, if given half a chance. Over a 2S bid, I would expect my partner topass or bid 4S, it depends a bit, if he believesthat he holds 4 tricks for partner me or only 3,... most likely he will bid 4S (and the same wouldhold for me). With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 I do open on junk like this, as a result responder's hand is not worth a game force. 1s=1nt(semiforce)2h=2nt(around 12-13 hcp may have a long minor invite hand)? Over 2nt I think I would pass with a misfit, if I bid 3H that will push us to a 4s game. These are the type of misfit hands one needs to be careful on when you open lightish with poor spot cards I think. A roth stone 2s opener gets you to a 2s partial on this one. :).? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 I would pass with this hand and come in later. However, in my favorite system this is a limited opening showing 4+♠... We'd probably play 3♠, unless partner is too enthousiastic with this misfit. 1♥! - 1♠*2♥ - 2NT3♥ - 3♠pass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 I wouldn't have opened. But whether or not you should open, I think you should pass 3NT. Partner knows you might have extra length in one or both majors but chose not to enquire about it via FSF. Maybe he has solid ♣ and the ♦K and hopes he can run 9 tricks in 3N. I think the fact that you felt you couldn't trust partner's judgement on this auction shows that deep down you felt that you shouldn't have opened the hand. "6-5 come alive" does allow you to play dead for one round! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 MPs, unfavorable. indy, you hope you are playing some type of SAYC. You deal, and get A8xxxx-Axxxx-8-10. Pd has xx-8-AJ10x-AK8xxx. Our auction went 1S-2C-2H-3NT-4S. Down 2, 38%. Would you have opened my hand? What about our auction? How would you bid this in your favorite system? Peter Was there a bad break? It looks like down 1 to me. AS, AH, H ruff, AD, AC, KC, D ruff, trump. If -2 was 38% then -1 is probably even a pretty good board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted June 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 "I think the fact that you felt you couldn't trust partner's judgement on this auction shows that deep down you felt that you shouldn't have opened the hand." No, when I opened the hand I was going to drive to 4M, and let pd bid 5m if he wanted. I don't think 6M5M hands belong in 3NT. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted June 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 "Was there a bad break? It looks like down 1 to me. AS, AH, H ruff, AD, AC, KC, D ruff, trump. If -2 was 38% then -1 is probably even a pretty good board." Trumps were 4-1, and had a trump lead. 5-1 diamond break, too. Lost 3 trumps and two hearts. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 In my favorite system, I can open 2♥, showing a weak hand with both (54)+ majors. Partner will bid 2♠, to play. Rik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_U_Card Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 In 1st seat, I would pass as it lacks the rule of 20 blessing. With only 2 QT's and a rebid, I need that 3rd parameter to open in 1st or 2nd. So the auction would be, (without interference) p-1C-1S-2C-2H-2S-3S-pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 Playing my preferred methods: 1♠ - 2♣2♥ - 2♠Pass Playing more standard methods: Pass - 1♣1♠ - 2♣2♥ - 2♠Pass There are definitely tactical advantages to opening hands like this one, but not if partner's going to force to game on a misfitting twelve-count. This is part of the reasoning for my strong preference to play non-game-forcing 2/1s. Ignoring strong openings (assume you play strong club or riton or something to deal with these), playing 2/1 GF will help you when partner has a game force and hurt you when partner has an "invitational range" hand and is forced to start with a wide-ranging and nebulous 1NT. If your (minimum) opening range is something like 12-15, then "invite" means something like a good 10 to a bad 12, so obviously that's infrequent. If your opening range is something like 8-15, then "invite" means something like a good 10 to a bad 16, which is an awful lot more frequent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe de Balliol Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 I open 1S and anyone who finds a way to stop short of 4S is being wise after the event or ought to win more world titles than they currently do. I expect to reach 4S and go off. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 MPs, unfavorable. indy, you hope you are playing some type of SAYC. You deal, and get A8xxxx-Axxxx-8-10. Pd has xx-8-AJ10x-AK8xxx. Our auction went 1S-2C-2H-3NT-4S. Down 2, 38%. With a regular partner I would open 1♠, is anyone surprized? But in an individual where partner can not take a joke, I would have passed and waited for a chance for micheals. Let's forget the individual part of the question. Would you have opened my hand? Normal partners, yes. Playing with a pick up unknown partner in an individual, no. What about our auction? In an individual, Pass - 1♣1♠ - 2♣2♥ - 2♠Pass ...looks just about right. I think the hand with the minors overbid when he bid 3NT. He has 12 hcp and a known misfit. The limit here is 2NT, misfits need to be bid cautiously. And in fact, I actually favor 2♠ rebid on the 2-1 in the majors to see what happened. So I think it might be possible in SAYC to land in exactly 2♠, and certainly no more than 3♠ after WEST opens. How would you bid this in your favorite system? With my regular partners, 1♠ - 1NT2♥ - 2♠Pass Is clearly right. Does this look foreign to you? Let me explain. 1NT is forcing, and we include a strongish unbalanced 2NT rebid as an option by responder, so this hand can be shown with 1NT followed by 2NT. We also use Ritong 2♣ a shade lighter than most, a good 14 hcp is enough. So 2♥ is a weak hand 14 or less, and major two suiter. We all know to STOP bidding when a huge misfit has been found. It is true a 5-3 ♦ fit might exist, but to explore it risk gieeting too high. Responder could, if he wanted bid 3♠ to show a nice hand and only two spades (not forcing), and if he did that, it would also end the auction. NOTE 1NT for me NEVER includes as many as three card support for the major with my regular partners... playing normal 2/1 with pick up partners, of course it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 In my favorite system, I can open 2♥, showing a weak hand with both (54)+ majors. Partner will bid 2♠, to play. Rik Why is this a weak hand? You have 2 Aces and only 6 losers... I also play 2♥ opening this way, but I'd never do it on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 in my favorite system 1h : 1nt - canape, gf2s : 2nt - 2nd suit, relay3c : 3d - 5/5 or better, relay3s : 4s - 6511, off 2, like you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted June 20, 2006 Report Share Posted June 20, 2006 I open 1S and anyone who finds a way to stop short of 4S is being wise after the event or ought to win more world titles than they currently do. I expect to reach 4S and go off. Jin my favorite system 1h : 1nt - canape, gf2s : 2nt - 2nd suit, relay3c : 3d - 5/5 or better, relay3s : 4s - 6511, off 2, like you Does it take a world champion now, to stay out of game on 20 hcp with no good fit? Amazing how times have changed. ;) I just find some of these comments amusing. It seems to me that any reasonable system should be able to diagnose this sort of thing. Notice that those people having trouble with these hands are: (1) Choosing to open the shapely 8-count.(2) Forced by their methods to immediately decide whether to force game as responder.(3) Choosing to force game with a reasonably nice 12 hcp and no obvious fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted June 20, 2006 Report Share Posted June 20, 2006 hehe, great hand for Zar point system. I would not open this hand. If we change the space suit to AT987x, i may open it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted June 20, 2006 Report Share Posted June 20, 2006 Does it take a world champion now, to stay out of game on 20 hcp with no good fit? Amazing how times have changed. ;) this is all about judgment... if one judges the hand to be an opener, and one judges the responder hand to be game forcing, bad things happen... my judgment, on these two hands, was not so good... sometimes it's better, sometimes worse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted June 20, 2006 Report Share Posted June 20, 2006 In the light of your opening style, partner's 3NT was an overbid. He must do something non-forcing and you can end in 2♠ or 3♠. If partner expected a more classical opener, your auction is understandable. I wonder if 4♥ over 3NT would be better. Partner could be 1-3-4-5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted June 20, 2006 Report Share Posted June 20, 2006 In the light of your opening style, partner's 3NT was an overbid. He must do something non-forcing and you can end in 2♠ or 3♠. If partner expected a more classical opener, your auction is understandable. I wonder if 4♥ over 3NT would be better. Partner could be 1-3-4-5. To be fair to north, this was an individual so the bidding style of the opener was probably very well unknown. One needs to bid somewhat conservatively in an individual because most people overbid in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted June 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2006 "To be fair to north, this was an individual so the bidding style of the opener was probably very well unknown. One needs to bid somewhat conservatively in an individual because most people overbid in them. " I agree. Pd could have adjusted and bid 2NT, but it is hard to blame him. Then 3S is down 1 for a 58% score. The pairs who did well didn't open my hand, but I would open it again without hesitation, with no criticism implied for those who wouldn't. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted June 20, 2006 Report Share Posted June 20, 2006 In my favorite system, I can open 2♥, showing a weak hand with both (54)+ majors. Partner will bid 2♠, to play. Rik Why is this a weak hand? You have 2 Aces and only 6 losers... I also play 2♥ opening this way, but I'd never do it on this one.You have to bid the hand that you are dealt. (I would prefer to have 2x KJT instead of 2xA.) But you are VUL vs NOT at MP's. 6 losers is ok. Rik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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