Your choice of intervention

[inquiry]

Well, the hand was worse than that

 

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=sjhak832dakt3ckj3&s=st6543ht97d762cq4]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

My point is I felt "safe" as advancer making a courtesy raise over the Negdbl (which I certainly would not over a pass), knowing that overcaller should not have more than about 17 HCP, and nearly always less. My bid is known to be weak and I would not expect a raise.

"Safe" is not the word I would use here. You could say it was the "lawful" bid if you were a LOTT believer, but lets look at what might go wrong.

 

1) You might encourage a heart lead on defense. While a heart lead could be right, it is only right when partner what to lead one... your bid will make him lead them when it is wrong. This is matchpoint after all, so strike one for the "safe bid"

 

2) If you and your partner are LAWFUL bidders, your raise showing three might get him to compete to three hearts when he holds six (and of course, your less than 17 hcp). Playing in 3H on a maximum of 18 hcp and likley less VULNERABLE versus non-vul at Matchpoint is no my idea of fun. Even if they should not double, you are likely down two at least on most hands (given partners range is something to 16, he will often have less than 16).

 

3) Even 2H risk down two, and risk being doubled given the vulnerability. Imagine your RHO short in spades and strong with hearts. A double here toast you.

 

4) Finally, you risk partner not being in on the joke and bidding more, as happened in this case.

 

To be honest with you, I play a "nuasance" raise to 2H with 2D being a normal raise, and I would not even make the definatively weak raise to 2H here.. I mean why? At this vul you can not outbid them, and you certainly dont want to encourage a heart lead or another heart bid.

[Al_U_Card]

I agree that I would refrain from showing this kind of "support". When the auction stalled at 2S that would be a decision point. If Pard happens to ask me again, I would be pleased to have the cheapest H bid available to describe my smelly piece of cheese.

[sfbp]

3) Even 2H risk down two, and risk being doubled given the vulnerability. Imagine your RHO short in spades and strong with hearts. A double here toast you.

uh, RHO made a negative double, (oops, edit) so he probably has four spades.

[kenberg]

Well, the hand was worse than that

 

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=sjhak832dakt3ckj3&s=st6543ht97d762cq4]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

My point is I felt "safe" as advancer making a courtesy raise over the Negdbl (which I certainly would not over a pass), knowing that overcaller should not have more than about 17 HCP, and nearly always less. My bid is known to be weak and I would not expect a raise.

 

I still believe the "pard might raise to 4♠" argument to be a chimera. To us, 4♠ is not a strong bid, it is a preempt, and as noted by Al_U_Card, all strong responding hands can start with a cue-bid to give partner a chance to disavow his double somewhat.

 

It actually took partner and me more than 10 minutes to see the double-dummy line too. I thought as I put the dummy down, he'd better appreciate my ♣Q :)

If you and partner are sufficiently atuned that he knows you might bid 2H on this hand then he can bid 3D asking if you are serious. The purpose of 2H with that hand escapes me. In competitive auctions, partner must know how far to push and when to consider a double. If 2H shows something like 0-10, and lacks the distribution for a rescue pull of a doomed double, I think it makes it tough. No doubt it is a matter of style (what isn't?) but waiting until you actually have something before you bid is not the craziest idea in the world.

[inquiry]

3) Even 2H risk down two, and risk being doubled given the vulnerability. Imagine your RHO short in spades and strong with hearts. A double here toast you.

uh, RHO made a negative double, and I am short in spades.

 

Doesnt seem too likely to me......

Seems like I misunderstand what you mean by you are short in spades (you did say YOU raised to 2H), you have five of them...., I wonder why you consider that short? When i said RHO being short in spade and with strong with hearts I meant opener (RHO to the original problem hand)....

[sfbp]

If you and partner are sufficiently atuned that he knows you might bid 2H on this hand then he can bid 3D asking if you are serious. The purpose of 2H with that hand escapes me. In competitive auctions, partner must know how far to push and when to consider a double. If 2H shows something like 0-10, and lacks the distribution for a rescue pull of a doomed double, I think it makes it tough. No doubt it is a matter of style (what isn't?) <snip>

More like 0-8.

 

Research shows (shhh don't tell mom!) that XX on any 9 count is pretty profitable.

 

The point of the post was not to highlight my superaggressive (and I'm sure the tone of some commentators indicate they thought it was suicidal) 2♥ bid, but to question whether ANY partnership should have to cope with 7-19 overcalls.

 

Into a pint pot putteth ye not a quart (ancient wisdom inscribed on a church in Baltimore dated 1692)

[jdonn]

What research is that?

I won't tell her, I promise.

[sfbp]

Geez, why would I discuss BRBR with you after your previous disbelief of the most basic 2+2=4 Josh?

 

Better to keep it to myself and make a profit.

[jdonn]

Ohhhh bridgebrowser research.

 

I agree with your decision, better not to share it with me. I am travelling soon and I prefer not to leave with an ulcer :)

 

Enjoy your profit.

[whereagles]

2♥ on the actual hand hand certainly is acceptable (though I prefer pass), but pard must be on the same wavelength. Otherwise it's better to just pass.

[han]

i'd double then bid hearts... for the 1♥ bidders, what do you bid with this hand?

 

♠  J4

♥  AK832 

♦  T532 

♣  K3

I'd bid 1♥. I would even bid 1♥ with xx KQJxx xxxx xx, shocking isn't it?

 

1) xx KQJxx xxxx xx

 

2) J AKxxx AK10x KJx

 

both hands bid 1♥.

[sfbp]

I am travelling soon and I prefer not to leave with an ulcer :)

Ah, but if you eat creme brulee you'll never get one

 

Hainanese Chicken Rice.... no wonder

[jdonn]

I am travelling soon and I prefer not to leave with an ulcer :)

Ah, but if you eat creme brulee you'll never get one

 

Hainanese Chicken Rice.... no wonder

I'm with you...this would not be my first choice

 

http://image.blog.livedoor.jp/braniff1967/.../2/f2c6ebe9.jpg

[inquiry]

It is not clear if trying to make fun of bridgebrowser is a useful exercise. There are things it can do, and things it can not do. Evaluate over millions of hands which is better with 9 hcp redouble, pass or bid after (1m)-1n-(DBL)-?

 

Is something it is easly suited for. Of course, you might want to subdivide on other criteria. For instance, support for partners overcall, stopper versus no stopper in 1m, good suit of your own, etc. The BridgeBrowser analysis of the "Pearson points" theory is very solid and sound I think.

 

Having said that, I have to admit, I would have to look long and hard at redouble with 9 to convince myself it was "a clear winner", but this stetches the point. I think the bidding theory is all wrong. It is wrong to insist on dobule with all 17+ hands and it is wrong to raise 1H to 2H VUL at matchpoint on this dreck.

[sfbp]

I think the bidding theory is all wrong. It is wrong to insist on dobule with all 17+ hands and it is wrong to raise 1H to 2H VUL at matchpoint on this dreck.

I am unrepentant. I don't think my 2 point raise is any worse than pard's 19 point overcall. They both stretch the parameters by about 2HCP.

 

I mean what happens if I pass? They play in 1S or 1NT down 1, undoubled and even doubled then that's only 100. And what is partner to do now?

 

The concession by Hannie that he would bid 1H on both extremes tells me that there's no way to bid the strong hand after a pass of the negdbl. I mean now HE's the one sticking his neck out to bid again, even with 19 points.

 

Bidding is all about fit and shape (points schmoints), and you can't have it both ways. Either 1♥ is right and 2♥ is right, or they are both wrong. Of course I am bidding 1♠ over double, but over X,1♠ (by RHO) i will peacefully pass (and wait for pard to get into trouble).

 

Funny thing is: 1H seems to be the only way to get us to our game-making fit. Very odd.

 

But I would still rather (at matchpoints) partner passed 2♥ and made 4 than bid 4♥ and made 2. I think the agreements I assumed were reasonable, and my bid within the range of those agreements (just). I see pard's point, but I rather WISH he had doubled, not because it gets us a better score (it clearly doesnt) but for my sanity.

[whereagles]

sfbp, how can you ask pard to pass when he has 16-17 hcp, maybe more? Surely he must at least make a game try, no?

 

Maybe one could point out that, since opps are both bidding, the deck probably splits 20-20 and pard's raise is thus likely to be rather sub-par... This might be true, but in practice we all know people get enthousiastic with big hands and one must antecipate that.

[sfbp]

sfbp, how can you ask pard to pass when he has 16-17 hcp, maybe more? Surely he must at least make a game try, no?

 

Maybe one could point out that, since opps are both bidding, the deck probably splits 20-20 and pard's raise is thus likely to be rather sub-par... This might be true, but in practice we all know people get enthousiastic with big hands and one must antecipate that.

 

Well, that's one reason it might be smart for him to X to begin with :huh:

 

The observation about XX on 9 points is entirely in accord with the idea that there are only 40 points in the deck.

 

Advancer generally has very little. 9 is (by advancer standards) a LOT.

 

So

 

a. he KNOWS that I have a max of 8

b. he knows that I know he will X on 17 or more (well as of a couple of days ago we are mostly agreed on this point)

 

Pointwise it only gets tricky when he has 17 and and I have 6 +/- 2.

 

As you say, once everyone is bidding, we can reevaluate somewhat, especially in the light of a fit, which on this hand is what the 2♥ bid reveals.

 

I would have been delighted to pass 3♥. Only question is with what you and I consider a maximum overcall (say 16) and I have the same 2, are we already too high?

 

But now opponents have a little more and they may bid. As I pointed out above, second (and/or third) actions by the overcaller are extremely unusual.

 

Let's hear it for bidding up bad hands in advancer's seat!

[awm]

A few points here:

 

(1) At one time it was probably right to assume that after an opening and response opponents have at minimum half the values. This makes certain actions reasonable, for example raising on very little (assuming partner will know you have a bad hand) or avoiding a natural notrump overcall in sandwich position. But in the modern game a lot of people open very light hands and respond on virtually nothing. In part, this style has been effective because so many people's competitive bidding is based upon assuming their opponents have cards. In any case I think a raise on this sequence needs to promise a modicum of values, rather than trusting that partner will "know" from opponent's bidding that you can't have a game.

 

(2) There are many reasons to make an overcall. Notably these are: to compete for the partial, to direct a lead, to disrupt opposing bidding, and to try and reach a game. These various goals require overcalling with a wide range of hands. Partner's 1♥ certainly accomplishes all of these goals. Note that a double could be markedly less successful, and there are in fact many auctions where double could come to grief -- for example suppose the opponents raise diamonds preemptively to the three level. Do you now bid hearts (could go for a number with only five of them), double again (surely this isn't penalty, is it?), or simply sell out when you could easily have a nine card heart fit and a cold game? What if LHO redoubles and partner bids 2♠ (preemptive), isn't this a total disaster?

 

(3) Raising an overcall can be seen to have similar goals to making the overcall. With the hand in question, you are unlikely to win the partscore battle especially at unfavorable (opponents have the values unless partner is very maximum, and in this case partner may well bid on), you're certainly not directing a good lead (you don't want to see a heart lead from a mediocre holding), and you certainly don't want to be in game. Only "trying to obstruct opposing bidding" makes any sense, and it's not like you are doing this with any great degree of safety or to a level that will really force a guess.

 

Partner's overcall is a reasonable action on a tough hand. I wouldn't say the same for the 2♥ raise.

[hotShot]

I mean what happens if I pass? They play in 1S or 1NT down 1, undoubled and even doubled then that's only 100. And what is partner to do now?

Your LHO will bid something (or your side is allowed to play 1♥X), with the result that you will have another chance to bid. You can bid 2♥ then. This way your partner knows that you are weak even for the low expectation he has.

 

So no way that opps will play on 1 level, even when you pass now.

[1eyedjack]

I would have overcalled 1H, but partly for reasons not yet mentioned (I may be mistaken - a three page thread is easy to miss something):

 

If I start with double and then bid Hearts I am showing a strong jump overcall in Hearts. I have the strength for it but I don't reckon that I have the Hearts for it.

 

The alternative is to double and bid NT - but partner will expect more Spades and fewer Hearts. I don't mind lying about the minor suit length. I don't have a huge aversion to lying a bit about major suit length. But lying about both majors AND when there is an acceptable alternative ...

[HeartA]

His contention: I dont want to X because you might jump to 4 spades.

In my system, there is no such call as 4S. The only choices are 1) 1S, the weakest and forced bid; 2) 2S, 8-11, depending on the quality/strength of ♠ and other honors; 3) 2D, game forcing (or forced to 3 level of agreed major); 4) 3S, 7+ (could be decent 6) S, weak hand. The last option was adopted with agreement only.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

 

One heart.

 

Regards,

Robert

[the hog]

Anything apart from 1H seems bizarre to say the least. I don't want to cope with high level S bids by my partner. (Maybe the heat is getting to me here in Thailand.)

[whereagles]

hoggie, you're back man. How's stuff in thailand? Hope you're doing fine.

[whereagles]

(1) At one time it was probably right to assume that after an opening and response opponents have at minimum half the values. This makes certain actions reasonable, for example raising on very little (assuming partner will know you have a bad hand) or avoiding a natural notrump overcall in sandwich position. But in the modern game a lot of people open very light hands and respond on virtually nothing.

Just one small comment. While it is true that in today's game opps might be bidding on.. let's say, not-so-strong-hands, it is also true that usually they'll have their bids. So the reasoning "I have 17, opps are both bidding, so pard's raise is very weak" will be valid in a reasonable share of the cases.

 

A possible way out for deciding whether or not to raise is bid if you have an honor in hearts or a side singleton, pass otherwise.

 

On another note, yeah, if it goes

 

1♦ dbl rdbl 2♠

 

you'll be in big trouble.. oops ;)