Another disaster with a sub

[helene_t]

[hv=d=s&v=n&w=saxhxxdaxxxxcaqxx&e=skqxxxhatxxxdkckj]266|100|Scoring: MP

1NT-2♣

2♦-3♣

3♦-3♠

6♣-6♥

6NT-Pass[/hv]

 

East was just subbed in some five minutes before the round clock so there was no time to discuss anything. Both players had some stuff on their profile but neither mentioned NT range or NT structure.

 

Please divide the blame among the two players. I will not feel terribly insulted if you say 200% for West and 200% for East.

[uday]

Was there a typo in the auction ? Did the responding hand bid stayman, then 3C with 5/5 in the majors?

 

Anyway, the final contract isnt so bad :) Just another slam on a 3-3 break

[helene_t]

There was no typo in the auction.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

West got what he/she deserved, opening an offshape NT,

but that is just my opinion regarding off shape NT

openings, and there are certainly lots of other bidding

behaviors, which are worse.

 

I can understand 2C, but not 3C, there are lots

of different meaning out there (weak sign off with clubs,

strong with clubs and a 4 card mayor, ...)

so the blame goes 99% to East.

 

... 1% to West for the offshape opener.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Walddk]

I don't understand 1NT.

I don't understand 2♣.

I don't understand 3♣.

 

I think I understand the rest, and 35.5% chance of making is quite good by my standards :)

 

Roland

[inquiry]

I understand 1NT... 14-16 range, or perhaps 12-14 range.

 

I don't like 2♣ with 5-5 in the majors

 

I think 2♦ is PERFECT

 

What the @#$#@($&%$@%#%$# was 3♣????????

 

3♦ show where you live is fine

 

3♠ could be (in theory) attempt to find 3NT if opener has ♥.

 

6♣ is an overibd. If responder lacks a ♥ stopper so do you. I would have bid 5♣ at this point, as we could be off two quick heart losers.

 

After 6♣, 6♥ must have surprised the heck out of WEST, but what else other than 6NT.

 

I think EAST made two bad bids... 2♣, 3♣, and two confusing ones 3♠ and 6♠. I think West made one overly optomistic bid 6♣ (4 or 5♣ would be better). So with 2 bad bids, EAST takes most of the blame. Lets say, 80% responsder, 20% opener. If opener had bid 4♣ or maybe 5♣ instead of 6, there would have been a chance to stop short of slam. And After all, no ♥ stopper and very likely minimum or subminimum for 1NT, 6♣ was over optomistic.

[GeeGee]

What Inquiry says. As English Acol WNT player, I am happy with 1NT. 2C, not sure but I understand why. 2D ok, 3C what???????

[lowerline]

[hv=d=s&v=n&w=saxhxxdaxxxxcaqxx&e=skqxxxhatxxxdkckj]266|100|Scoring: MP

1NT-2♣

2♦-3♣

3♦-3♠

6♣-6♥

6NT-Pass[/hv]

 

East was just subbed in some five minutes before the round clock so there was no time to discuss anything. Both players had some stuff on their profile but neither mentioned NT range or NT structure.

 

Please divide the blame among the two players. I will not feel terribly insulted if you say 200% for West and 200% for East.

Nothing about NT range or NT structure and you decide to open 1NT on a 2254 with 14hcp? I guess you got what you wanted: to declare the contract.

 

It is clear that east did not bid his hand well (understatement), but how do you expect to keep him out of six after you opened 1NT...

[Double !]

What the @#$#@($&%$@%#%$# was 3♣????????

Ben:

 

please check your spelling

 

i believe that you transposed a few #s and $s.

 

 

lolololol

 

 

DHL

[Double !]

re: assigning blame

 

100% to the person who paired you with this sub.

 

DHL

[keylime]

Ok, I'm going to rant a little bit here.

 

What is the cotton-pickin' deal with the onslaught of offshape NT's lately? Doesn't anyone believe in opening a five card diamond suit anymore? Even the 80 year old at the club this week opened an offshape NT against me (we set it 2 for a top). It's the latest epidemic. For the love of all things decent, don't open THIS type of hand 1NT. I can see if it's a minor-major hand with hearts but not this - this hand begs to be tabled.

 

My auction:

 

♠ Ax

♥ xx

♦ Axxxx

♣ AQxx

 

♠ KQxxx

♥ ATxxx

♦ K

♣ KJ

 

1D - 1S

2C - 2H

2NT - 3H

3NT - some sort of quantity invite.

 

Opener gets 80 percent blame. Responder on the given auction gets 10 to the 87th power blame for not transferring to spades and rebidding hearts. The person who subbed you into this...a lashing with ramen noodles. :D

[Codo]

I won´t blame "muggles" for their disability to do magic.

Why should I blame this two "bridge players" for not being able to bid?

1 Nt, 2 Club, 3 Club are too far away from good bridge.

 

But I would blame responder 80%.

 

Opening offshape NTs is sick (esp. with 2254), but quite common in indys or with unknown subs, because really any given novice believes, that he can play any hand better then you or me... 2 Club and 3 Club are bids just out of the world.

[toothbrush]

About WEST: I really don't like these people who open 1NT as much as possible, with 'almost' 15hcp and 'almost' a balanced hand (but may be my opinion about this is going to change).

 

About EAST: 2♣??, 3♣???????

 

I blame West for 1% and East for 99% for this absurd bidding.

[helene_t]

Hmm ... obviously, my choice for a 1NT opening is not very popular here. Let me try to defend my choice:

 

- I just want to play notrumps. This is matchpoints and nobody is vulnerable. I don't want LHO to make a 1♥ or 1♠ overcall. And if they play Capp, they may not even be able to find their fit at the 2-level.

 

- 14 points? Points schmoints. This hand is strong enough.

 

But OK, my subconscious desire to declare the contract may be part of the story so I should probably take a lesson from this thread (that was the purpose of starting it after all). So next time I get this hand I'll try to remember not to open 1NT.

[david_c]

Yeah I don't like 1NT. Some reasons to prefer 1♦:

 

(i) You don't have a rebid problem with opening 1♦.

 

(ii) All those aces! They make the hand good for playing in a suit contract, and relatively bad for being declarer in NT.

 

(iii) Although the strength is just about enough to open 1NT, you are right at the bottom of the range. So if the auction goes, say, 1♦ - 1♥ - 2♣ - 2♦, you can happily pass without worrying that you have much undisclosed extra strength. Whereas, if you had an extra queen, then you would have a problem after 1♦ - 1♥ - 2♣ - 2♦, having to decide whether to make another move to show your strong hand. Showing your strength immediately with a 1NT opening would then be more attractive.

[kenberg]

I believe that the 2D response to the presumed Stayman bid of 2C is completely correct. This leaves the score as 1-0 in favor of W.

[han]

I was going to say that I didn't like th 1NT opener, but now that I know it was Helene I changed my mind: automatic 1NT opener. Of course east was %$#%$%$#%$# (which is the correct spelling Ben :)).

[winkle]

Is this the deal?

 

http://online.bridgebase.com/myhands/fetchlin.php?id=3596498

 

After a 1N opening, I can see a lot of people getting overboard on sensible auctions.

[olegru]

- 14 points? Points schmoints. This hand is strong enough.

We can complain about East's 2♣ and 3♣ bids but let be honest - after his Partner oppened 1NT he is going to play slam and will bid it no matter what.

His route was kind of confusing I would bid transfer 2♥ and 6♥ over 2♠ (Aces schmases) :)

[1eyedjack]

I would have opened 1N, assuming in range.

 

With a pickup partner and no discussion 2C response has some practicality as there may be doubt about whether transfers are in operation. It can reliably be assumed that 2C will be interpreted as Stayman. 2H "transfer" has some merit on the grounds that if partner misinterprets it as showing Hearts then, well, at least you have Hearts as well, although you may be playing at the 2 level when you want to be in game.

 

3m followup to Stayman is when the chaos theory kicks in, and that is of course the principal flaw in the 2C response. Extended stayman? (normally 3D for that I thought, if in operation.) Is it even forcing? (some do, some don't). If this player has never come across 3C in a non-forcing capacity then he may be unaware of the scope for confusion on that issue, even if he may be in doubt about what (apart from being forcing) the bid shows, so I can see the logic within that context. Still a crap bid, mind.

 

Over 3S, West is totally in the dark. 3N, 4C and 4S all have some merit. I subscribe to the "if in doubt bid 3N" in these situations, but if responder is trying to flag up the Heart weakness this might be the one occasion to avoid it. I would not have chosen 6C.

 

Blame? Well, I think in a pickup with no opportunity for discussion the total blame to be apportioned should not exceed about 50%. Say, 25% West, 25% East.

[ochinko]

Hmm ... obviously, my choice for a 1NT opening is not very popular here. Let me try to defend my choice:

 

- I just want to play notrumps. This is matchpoints and nobody is vulnerable. I don't want LHO to make a 1♥ or 1♠ overcall. And if they play Capp, they may not even be able to find their fit at the 2-level.

 

- 14 points? Points schmoints. This hand is strong enough.

 

But OK, my subconscious desire to declare the contract may be part of the story so I should probably take a lesson from this thread (that was the purpose of starting it after all). So next time I get this hand I'll try to remember not to open 1NT.

I don't mind the off-shaped hand but 1NT from your hand is wrongsided unless you really believe you would get a ♣ lead. :huh:

[the hog]

1NT 12-14 on this hand is fine Helene; don't let them get to you.

[Chamaco]

About the 3♣ rebid.

 

I suspect you were playing with an italian.

 

In Italy, it is very common (and taught to all beginner), to use the 3C rebid as a relay to ask for a 5 card suit (a 5 card minor, when opener has denied a major).

 

This is absolutely standard in italian mid-low flights (competitive players of course have their own gadgets, or at least, follow some of the tools commonly known in USA and the rest of Europe).

 

Just another examples of the confusion caused by different bridge standards, even worse in occasional partnerships :-)

[helene_t]

Actually, I played with an "Expert" from Sweden. In Modern Efos, which is an extension of Swedish Modern Standard, 3♣ was presumably a pubbet to 3♦, after which 3♠ showed 5-4 majors. His correct bid, playng Efos, was a transfer to hearts followed by bidding spades twice (my instinct would be to start with a transfer to spades, following the princible of higher 5-card first, but starting with a transfer to hearts must be superior).

 

I have no idea how widespread this treatment is among advanced players in Sweden.

[Trinidad]

Actually, I played with an "Expert" from Sweden. In Modern Efos, which is an extension of Swedish Modern Standard, 3♣ was presumably a pubbet to 3♦, after which 3♠ showed 5-4 majors. His correct bid, playng Efos, was a transfer to hearts followed by bidding spades twice (my instinct would be to start with a transfer to spades, following the princible of higher 5-card first, but starting with a transfer to hearts must be superior).

 

I have no idea how widespread this treatment is among advanced players in Sweden.

When I was reading the discussion, I had the feeling that the 3♣ bidder was Swedish. It is a popular treatment in Sweden to play that 1NT-2♣; 2♦-3♣ asks about opener's three card major. The convention is called "repeated Stayman". It is widespread among club players in Sweden. My guess is that over 80% of the older players between "social" and "advanced" plays it and I can easily imagine that there are older experts who play this.

 

Your partner obviously suffered from the same disease that at least 50% of the bridge players suffer from: Thinking that their way to play is the only right way to play. (This is not exclusive for bridge players. Generalized: Most people suffer from the idea that their way to do something is the only right thing to do it.)

 

About your 1NT opening. I don't mind opening off shape NT openings (5422/6322/4441). But you have to have a reason to do that and not do it for the sake of opening 1NT on as many hands as possible. In this particular case, you don't have a reason: You have an easy rebid and if your side is playing a NT contract it would be better for your partner to declare.

 

Rik