Is this a 2 Club opener in SAYC

[ArcLight]

What would you open with this hand? IMPS Vul vs NonVul

 

♠ A K T X X X

♥ K x

♦ K x

♣ A K 3

 

I opened 1 ♠. We ended up in 3NT making 6 (defense palyed poorly). Pard thought I should have opened 2♣ like several others.

 

While this is a very nice hand, I felt it was flawed in several ways.

 

1. I would need to enter dummy twice to take the 2 red suit finesses.

 

2. If pard had just 1 Spade, I'd have 1 or 2 spade losers, on top of what ever else I lost.

 

3. I felt game was close, and if pard could scrape up a bid, I'd go for it, but if pard passed, then we'd be in a part score.

[Walddk]

Agree with 1♠.

 

Roland

[whereagles]

If I'm not mistaken, in sayc 1-suiters with 18-20 hcp are usually opened at the 1-level, intending to make a reverse or jump rebid, even if that means bidding a 3-card suit.

 

In french standard those hands open a 2♣ 'fort indeterminee', while in acol I think the bid is a 2♦ benjamim opener.

 

(Incidently, I disagree with all three aproaches.. lol)

[pbleighton]

If your red kings were aces you could open this 2C. As is, 1S is the bid.

 

Peter

[inquiry]

In SAYC this is clearly only a 1♠ opener. Same is true of 2/1. Some natural bidding systems will allow this to be opened 2♣, but then they must have a way to stop in precisely 2♠.

[david_c]

Hands with long spades are good for opening 2♣, but this one falls just short in my opinion so I'd open 1♠.

[hotShot]

The contract you want to play is ♠ and you need to protect your red K's.

Playing SAYC this is a clear 1♠ opener.

I'd like to know the rest of the bidding, because i can't really understand why you stopped in 3NT, because 4♠ looks like the better contract.

Even with a weak partner bidding both red suits a ♠ void is unlikely and playing ♠ seems at least equivalent to 3NT.

[ArcLight]

>I'd like to know the rest of the bidding, because i can't really understand why you stopped in 3NT, because 4♠ looks like the better contract.

 

Playing 2/1

1♠ - 1NT (forcing)

3NT

 

I think the correct book bid would have been 3♠ becaus eof teh 6 spades, headed by AKJ. But in Mike Lawrences version of 2/1 3NT shows 20+. Here is some of my reasoning at the time:

 

1- playing with a pick up pard, I didn't want to miss game. Pard had passed a forcing bid on the prior hand, so I didn't want to take any chances with a bid like 3♣ or 3♠.

 

2- I didn't know what pard hand, he may have had 6 HCP and a spade void, so I didnt want to jump to 3♠ passed out.

[helene_t]

3♠ would have been non-forcing so you can't bid that. Some would say that 2NT shows an 18-19 balanced while 3NT shows what you have. Without that agreement the correct rebid is probably 3♣.

[ArcLight]

>3♠ would have been non-forcing so you can't bid that. Some would say that 2NT shows an 18-19 balanced while 3NT shows what you have. Without that agreement the correct rebid is probably 3♣.

 

Perhaps, but pard had passed that sequence on a prior hand. :blink:

I mentioned that he passed a forcing bid, so I didn't want to take a chance.

(Not much fun playing that way! :ph34r: )

[SoTired]

I see nothing wrong with opening this 4-loser hand 2C. The hand has plenty of defense and quick tricks and HCP. But the primary reason I'd open it 2C is that if partner has 3 or 4 spades and 2 clubs and out, partner is likely to pass when 4S is making.

[helene_t]

That can hardly be the reason why they say you should have opened 2♣. If partner is capable of passing forcing bids, you must certainly open 4♠. :ph34r:

[barmar]

>3♠ would have been non-forcing so you can't bid that. Some would say that 2NT shows an 18-19 balanced while 3NT shows what you have. Without that agreement the correct rebid is probably 3♣.

 

Perhaps, but pard had passed that sequence on a prior hand. :blink:

I mentioned that he passed a forcing bid, so I didn't want to take a chance.

(Not much fun playing that way! :ph34r: )

He passed a forcing bid, and then he criticized your bidding on this one?

[SoTired]

I missed that! I said I'd open it 2C rather than 1S because partner with xxxx xxx xxxx xx would pass 1S when 4S is a good contract. Anybody that willy-nilly passes forcing bids is not someone you want to take bidding advice from. :ph34r:

[jdonn]

This argument about, partner could have a yarb with 4 card support and the right queen and we will miss game if I don't open 2♣, is silly. If 1/15 times partner passes 1♠ you have game (they will balance most of those times anyway but lets ignore that) and 14/15 times partner passes 1♠ you don't have game, then you should open 1♠. How about all the hopeless games opening 2♣ will get to when partner is broke and doesn't have exactly the perfect hand for you?

 

Easy 1♠ opener, and easy 3♣ rebid (playing standard methods).

[Al_U_Card]

You don't have more quick tricks than losers. Opposite a yarboro with trump support you can't make game, so start with 1S and if pard can make a peep then you are off to the races. 2C would be masterminding in SAYC or 2/1 in my eyes.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

depends on how forcing 2C is,

is it semiforcing and if you can stop

in 2S, than 2C is fine, if 2C forces

to game, 1S is better.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[toothbrush]

I open this 1♠.

May be this can be opened 2NT also, right-sided.

[foo]

♠AKTxxx♥Kx♦Kx♣AKx

 

Major suit oriented 2C openings w/o 22+ HCP should be worth >= 8.5 tricks and have 6+ controls (or have 4- losers).

 

You've got the controls.

You only have ~7 expected tricks (or you have 1+1.5+1.5+1= 5 expected losers)

You usually will need GOP to have 2 cover cards and S support for you to make 4S.

IOW, 1S-allpass is unlikely to miss a game.

 

Change one of those red K's into an A, and I'd open 2C w/o hesitation.

Change the Cx into a Sx and I would again open 2C w/o hesitation.

 

The "book" SA sequence w/ this hand is 1S-any;4S showing 6+S and 18+ HCP.

 

Many pairs plays 1M-any;3C! as (semi)artificial with some fancy relay or relay-like continuations to clarify Opener's shape and strength.

[jdeegan]

:D The rule I was taught in days of yore was "four quick tricks and four losers for the major suits". You have 5 quick tricks, but you are a tad short of having just four losers. Your point that you may not have dummy entries to lead twice toward your two kings is a most relevant point. I would bid one spade.

 

The other issue is that opening a strong two bid is nowhere nearly as useful today as it was 40 years ago when 2♠, 2♥ and 2♦ openers were strong as well. The awkward mechanics of starting off at the two level with an artificial opener followed by a relay make the strong two bid more like a necessary evil necessary to handle big hands.

[ArcLight]

>The other issue is that opening a strong two bid is nowhere nearly as useful today as it was 40 years ago when 2♠, 2♥ and 2♦ openers were strong as well.

 

I would say just the opposite. Its the ONLY forcing bid you have. Thus it is more valuable.

[Chamaco]

I think with the given hand I'd bid 3C, setting a GF, as opener rather than 3NT.

[keylime]

I open 1♠ in standard. I can jump rebid no problem.

[Winstonm]

IMO there is no right or wrong answers here - a lot has to do with opening style as well as responding style.

 

1S could work well when we can't make much of anything or when partner has enough to keep the bidding open but risks missing game when partner holds a couple of randon minor cards and a 3/4 card spade fit and is prevented from keeping the bidding alive.

 

2N could work out if partner has consolidation in the minors but pard will probably not raise unless he has a hand that would respond to 1S.

 

2C could work but could get the contract too high, especially if partner expects a better hand.

 

This is almost the exact hand type the Howard Schenken wrote about that is impossible to bid in standard and why he moved to a forcing club system.

 

The main point IMO for a solid partnership is to understand and accept the limitations of whatever system you adopt and accept the occassional bad result due to system failure with a shrug and without recriminations. No one guesses correctly all the time.

 

Winston

[neilkaz]

Make 1 red king an ace and then opening 2C becomes my bid as PD is more likely to pass when you can make game, but here 2C looks like too much for me. Even then, many would not open 2C. The hand given looks like 8ish tricks to me. Since I usually play Bergen raises, I can raise PD's 3S (4 trumps and no more than 5HCP) to game, but even without Bergen I just open 1S.

 

1S followed by a 3C GF jump shift is how to handle this hand in standard since you always return to spades. If PD has both missing aces, it shouldn't be too hard to end up in your likely slam.

 

.. neilkaz ..