Forcing NT Problem

[Winstonm]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=s105ha953da97cqj73]133|100|Scoring: IMP

The auction:

N E S W

1S P 1N P

2C 2H ?[/hv]

 

 

How do you continue from here?

[pbleighton]

At this vulnerability, double is out (sigh). So 2NT or 3C.

 

2NT for me.

 

1NT forcing is an ugly convention :P

 

Peter

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

what would 2NT mean?

Natural or Good/Bad, in the later

case promising at least inv. strength?

 

Whatever it does, I have it.

 

If Partner takes it as Good/Bad, I will

pass 3C.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[SoTired]

X for penalty - can't let opps get away with this. Responder is only an invitational game hand. If 3N is making, then 2HX is getting killed. Take the sure positive. It is possible that 2HX makes, but very unlikely.

[pbleighton]

"X for penalty - can't let opps get away with this. Responder is only an invitational game hand. If 3N is making, then 2HX is getting killed. Take the sure positive. It is possible that 2HX makes, but very unlikely. "

 

Double at the two level at unfavorable?

 

Peter

[SoTired]

One good time to make a penalty dbl is when you have game invitational values. You might not even have a game here, so your vulnerability is not important. Give opener an average opener like AKxxx xx QJx Kxx and 2H is going down at least 2.

[jdonn]

Double, you don't even know if you have game so the vulnerability is not an issue. Your opponent doesn't have diddly, he is not vul and didn't bid the first time. Make him pay.

[Winstonm]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sakj876h10dk4ca962&s=s105ha953da97cqj73]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

These were the two hands. As you can see, 4S is easy; however, if south doubles is this strict penalty or is it cooperative? Best defense beats 2H by 2 tricks. What should the double mean?

[pbleighton]

"You might not even have a game here, so your vulnerability is not important. "

 

Huh? It's important if you have a game, as in the 620 you have given up by doubling in order to get 300, in this example hand. You can't assume you have game, but you can't assume you don't. I would double at equal vulnerability.

 

"These were the two hands. As you can see, 4S is easy; however, if south doubles is this strict penalty or is it cooperative? Best defense beats 2H by 2 tricks. What should the double mean?"

 

Penalty. 3 suits have been bid.

 

Peter

[jdonn]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sakj876h10dk4ca962&s=s105ha953da97cqj73]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

These were the two hands. As you can see, 4S is easy; however, if south doubles is this strict penalty or is it cooperative? Best defense beats 2H by 2 tricks. What should the double mean?

Who cares what it means, partner would never pass with that hand. He bid 2♣ specifically because he was planning to take one more bid to describe his hand, and he should take it.

[mike777]

<!-- NORTHSOUTH begin --><table border=1> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td>Dealer:</td> <td> North </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vul:</td> <td> N/S </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Scoring:</td> <td> IMP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table border='1'> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> AKJ876 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> 10 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> K4 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> A962 </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> 105 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> A953 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> A97 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> QJ73 </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- NORTHSOUTH end -->

 

These were the two hands.  As you can see, 4S is easy; however, if south doubles is this strict penalty or is it cooperative?  Best defense beats 2H by 2 tricks.  What should the double mean?

Who cares what it means, partner would never pass with that hand. He bid 2♣ specifically because he was planning to take one more bid to describe his hand, and he should take it.

This is an excellent thread, thanks for bringing up this whole issue.

 

Jdonn makes an excellent point.

 

This is a common problem. While expert players may find this whole thread simple and obvious, this is the type of problem that gives many of us int. level players pause with both hands and we can learn a great deal from both hands, thanks.

[ArcLight]

North made an bad bid IMO.

With that kind of spade suit, he should have rebid 2♠, which (at least in the 2/1 form Mike Lawrence) shows 6 Spades over a forcing NT.

 

The problem with the 2♣ bid is its possible to have only 3 Clubs.

With a 5=2=3=3 hand , you bid 2♣. I'd not be thrilled raising to 3♣ on a 4-3 fit.

 

 

>Double, you don't even know if you have game so the vulnerability is not an issue. Your opponent doesn't have diddly, he is not vul and didn't bid the first time. Make him pay.

 

I agree. In addition if you don't swat these overcalls, the opps will start making more of them. The best way to stop the opps from making bad overcalls is to punish them. -100 when you could have made a part score is bad at MPs. But those -300 will make them reconsider at IMPs.

[Winstonm]

Dealer: North Vul: N/S Scoring: IMP

♠ AKJ876 ♥ 10 ♦ K4 ♣ A962 ♠ 105 ♥ A953 ♦ A97 ♣ QJ73

 

These were the two hands.  As you can see, 4S is easy; however, if south doubles is this strict penalty or is it cooperative?  Best defense beats 2H by 2 tricks.  What should the double mean?

Who cares what it means, partner would never pass with that hand. He bid 2♣ specifically because he was planning to take one more bid to describe his hand, and he should take it.

So sorry, but that was the wrong South hand. It really was:

 

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=s4haq97da9742c842]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

If North bids again, it must mean that the double is cooperative, no? If it is penalty, then south should have a hand not unlike this second. To my thinking, this should be a cooperative double, or card-showing, as with a stong penalty type double south can pass and expect a reopening double.

[mike777]

North made an bad bid IMO.

With that kind of spade suit, he should have rebid 2♠, which (at least in the 2/1 form Mike Lawrence) shows 6 Spades over a forcing NT.

 

The problem with the 2♣ bid is its possible to have only 3 Clubs.

With a 5=2=3=3 hand , you bid 2♣. I'd not be thrilled raising to 3♣ on a 4-3 fit.

 

 

>Double, you don't even know if you have game so the vulnerability is not an issue. Your opponent doesn't have diddly, he is not vul and didn't bid the first time. Make him pay.

 

I agree. In addition if you don't swat these overcalls, the opps will start making more of them. The best way to stop the opps from making bad overcalls is to punish them. -100 when you could have made a part score is bad at MPs. But those -300 will make them reconsider at IMPs.

I think this is a clear 2club rebid if this is more than minimum opener in your style. Easy 2c bid for me, I could have much less for 2s.

[Mariner1]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=s105ha953da97cqj73]133|100|Scoring: IMP

The auction:

N  E  S  W

1S P 1N P

2C 2H ?[/hv]

 

 

How do you continue from here?

You should DOUBLE...... your p should pull the double to express interest in

GAME by bidding 3 SPADES. Bidding is a co-operative effort and these bids

both exhibit that co-operation.

[foo]

North made an bad bid IMO.

With that kind of spade suit, he should have rebid 2♠, which (at least in the 2/1 form Mike Lawrence) shows 6 Spades over a forcing NT.

 

The problem with the 2♣ bid is its possible to have only 3 Clubs.

With a 5=2=3=3 hand , you bid 2♣.  I'd not be thrilled raising to 3♣ on a 4-3 fit.

 

 

>Double, you don't even know if you have game so the vulnerability is not an issue. Your opponent doesn't have diddly, he is not vul and didn't bid the first time. Make him pay.

 

I agree.  In addition if you don't swat these overcalls, the opps will start making more of them.  The best way to stop the opps from making bad overcalls is to punish them.  -100 when you could have made a part score is bad at MPs.  But those -300 will make them reconsider at IMPs.

The reason N did not simply rebid 2S w/

♠AKJ876♥T♦K4♣A962

is that this control rich, 5 loser, 6421 has much greater playing strength than the average 15 HCP hand.

 

1S-1N;2S is for 7 loser hands or indifferent 6 loser hands. Not this potential playing powerhouse.

1S-1N;3S is the SA "book bid" for a medium hand w/ 6+S. Unfortunately, this hand is potentially a maximum.

So Opener tried to "thread the needle".

 

Opener was evidently planning a uncontested auction along the line of

1S-1N.;2C-2S;4S or

1S-1N.;2C-2N;3S-etc or

etc.

 

Opener "knows" Responder is not raising 2C to 3C w/o at least 4+C.

 

 

As for "swatting" these overcalls, when We are Red and They are White We have to "swat" exceptionally hard to make up for a lost game.

Therefore, we should first make sure that we are likely to make more "swatting" than Declaring.

If They are sane and bidding 2H for a lead (IOW, they have a =good= suit for their overcall), We are going to be very hard pressed to make 2HX worth missing game.

[pclayton]

I don't get too excited about these auctions. The overcaller is coming into a live auction, which is a little unusual when the opponents havent found a fit. So if the opps get occasionally lucky its no big deal.

 

I'd double as Josh did. I'd also double on the 2nd hypothetical hand that Winston posted and wouldn't care if pard pulled.

[HeartA]

At this vulnerability, double is out (sigh). So 2NT or 3C.

 

2NT for me.

 

1NT forcing is an ugly convention :P

 

Peter

2NT for me, as well.

[neilkaz]

Double with either hand ! This double should not be taken as strict penalty at this level but should require some cooperation from opener to sit for it.

 

Off course, here, opener with almost a hand good enough to jump to 3S directly over 1NT, pulls the double and you can proceed to your game.

 

.. neilkaz ..

[sceptic]

whats wrong with 2 spades just because he bid 2H does not mean he is weak he may have good spades