Extensions to KEY CARD BLACKWOOD

[pigpenz]

HAND

[hv=s=sqj3haq83dqj763c10]133|100|[/hv]

Auction:

opps passing throughout

 

1♦ 1♥

2♥ 4NT

5♦ 5♠

Your call

 

what are your responses to when partner asks for queen of trump or do you not take this as asking for queen but to sign off in 5NT? Do you show specific Kings or specifice singletons adn what would 6♥ say?

[cnszsun]

I don't know if this is standard, but i play it like this:

5NT=♥Q, no side King;

6♥=no ♥Q;

6♣or6♦=♥Q+King at bid suit.

[mike777]

This is unusual, usually they ask so you can sign off at the 5 level without the Queen. The fact they are asking for the queen here must promise all the key cards outside of the queen and be a grandslam try.

 

In this case I would respond, 7H or 6Clubs as I think I got extra's.

This hand also seems to be the poster child to play kickback or 1430. :rolleyes:. Over a 5c response pard could have bid 5D to queen ask. Kantar has a huge complicated book out to cover this convention in full detail.

[Walddk]

I don't know if this is standard, but i play it like this:

5NT=♥Q, no side King;

6♥=no ♥Q;

6♣or6♦=♥Q+King at bid suit.

How do you show ♥Q and ♠K?

 

Roland

[helene_t]

Without the queen, we show (if possible, which it usually isn't) specific kings below the 5-level.

 

With the queen, we show specific queens between the 5- and 6-level.

 

Or something like that. Usually, either partner or I (or both) forget it, or we are not even sure what suit is trump or if 5NT is to play.

 

I have better experiences with just blasting six.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

5S is a ask for the trump queen, it is certainly not a

request to bid 5NT as sign of, he could have bid 5H.

 

To sign of in 5NT makes only sense, when minors are

involved, if you have a mayor suit fit, play the mayor,

the mayor suit contract will be safer on the 5 level

than NT, you are already in "no mans land".

 

Depending on how you play it, either 5NT or 6H denies

the Queen, I play 5NT denies, ... but I have to check

with my partner, we also show the cheapes side suit King,

if we have the Queen, so 6H it is for me.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[cnszsun]

I don't know if this is standard, but i play it like this:

5NT=♥Q, no side King;

6♥=no ♥Q;

6♣or6♦=♥Q+King at bid suit.

How do you show ♥Q and ♠K?

 

Roland

No way, so 5NT in fact may have ♠K.

Maybe, we can play it other way, just the same as answers to 5NT king asking:

If ♠ is agreed suit, answer specific king from lower step;

If ♥ is agreed suit, answer the numbers of Kings.

[whereagles]

Hearts are trumps:

 

4NT 5♦

5♥ = pass if you have 0 keys, respond to queen ask if you have 3

5♠ = I know you have 0 keys and would pass 5♥, so this is a queen ask to reply to regardless.

[Free]

This is the problem with normal RKC with a ♥ fit. Playing kickback this is solved VERY easy.

 

I like 2 methods, but the second seems better playing kickback:

 

First:

- bid in a suit is that King OR both other kings

- NT shows no or all Kings

- 6 trump here can be used to show ♠K or both minor Kings

 

Second:

- specific Kings

[blackshoe]

5NT: no ♥Q

6♣: ♥Q, no ♦K

6♦: ♥Q, ♦K, no ♣K

6♥: ♥Q, ♦K, ♣K, no ♠K

6♠: ♥Q, ♦K, ♣K, ♠K, no ♦Q

6NT: ♥Q, ♦K, ♣K, ♠K, ♦Q, no ♣Q

and so on...

 

On the given hand, 6♣, after which 6♦ asks for the ♣K. If responder doesn't care about the ♣K, 6♥ asks for the ♠K (it can't be a signoff, since opener has shown the ♥Q, and responder wouldn't have asked for that if he didn't expect to go beyond 6♥ if opener has it).

[inquiry]

Get Kantar's Book on Blackwood.. it has 26 CHAPTERS on how to use Blackwood. Imagine, 26 chapters on such a "simple" convention!

 

I also would use 5♥ here to ask for queen and others.

 

His responses to queen ask are (note, he doesn't ask for queen if there is a missing keycard, this is different from some people who are trying to signoff at five if missing the queen and a keycard):

1. Returrn to the trump suit without the queen
   
2. Bid cheapest side suit king
   
3. Bid 5NT with the queen and a "useful card", he gives a list of what 4 things that a useful card can be.. .a) trump in partners first bid suit (he only bid hearts), :P queen in partners first bid suit (not this hand, partner only bid hearts), c) extra trump in long trump hand (not this hand), d) if no side suit has been bid, queen in any side suit.... get his book
   
4. Jump to grand slam if you can count to 13 tricks
   

For what it is worth, on this auction kantar response with openers hand would have been 5♣ (1 or 4), and the 5♦ would have asked for trump queen. Now 5♥ would have denied queen, 5♠ showed queen plus spade king, 5NT denied any side queen but show an "extra", not entirely clear what that extra would be from this list, but here with queens in two side suits and a singleton, must be fine to show extra that is not a king, 6♣ = club king, no spade king, plus heart queen (can still have diamond king), 6♦ = diamond king, no black king, 6♥= heart queen, not side king, no "extra".

 

When hearts are the agreed trump, showing the spade king can be a problem. Not playing Kantar RKB on this auction of course, since the initial response would have been 5♣ (which is why he rotates between 1403 and 0314) but imagine similar auction where the asking bid is 5NT... with hearts as trumps. He has rules for when you show the king (should you hold it), having to do with A) is asker known to have a balanced hand? Then show it. :blink: does asker have a short suit? Bid in the short suit to show it. Know neither of those? Then don't show it.

[Winstonm]

In Eddie Kantar's latest book on Keycard, he states the object is not to have this problem - meaning whether the responses are 0314 or 1430 switch depending on who does the asking. The object is to get a 5C response to help eliminate some of this problem.

 

In the given problem, I treat 5S as specific King ask, with responses of 5N showing the spade K and others as natural.

[pigpenz]

Yes in fact i was just reading Kantars book on KeyCard last week.

I just didnt have anyluck on this hand telling partner that the 5♠ was a queen asking bid :P

[kfgauss]

Several partners of mine like a treatment where 5♥ and 5♠ are both queen asks, but with the difference that, even with 3, partner passes 5♥ without the queen (and responds to the queen ask with 3 and the queen, passes with zero).

 

On the surface, this seems illogical, as if you only have 1 keycard but no queen (i.e. the holding where this "non-forcing opposite 3" queen ask is useful) then you weren't prepared for a 5♠ response showing 2+Q, but I guess the reasoning is that you'll occasionally "know" partner has at least 3 keycards and be willing to risk keycarding anyways. In any case, it doesn't give up much (it does move your normal queen ask and your king ask one step higher, but I don't think we've ever felt pain here, whereas the NF queen ask has come up occasionally).

 

Andy

[Double !]

Wouldn't it just be a whole lot easier to play kickback, that 4S is RKC when hearts are the agreed suit? Then you always have 4 steps available without going past 5 of your suit and no confusion about the queen-ask.

 

I play specific kings with one person. 6M = no outside kings.

 

DHL