Handling the Strong Jump Shift

[jdonn]

I'll bid 4♣. I don't like the methods either, but the fact is that opener sometimes has to make up a bid with a one-suited game force. Jumping to 5♣ can easily hang partner if he holds something like:

 

AKQxxxx

Ax

x

Axx

 

I'm sure some people open 2♣ with that, some people rebid 3NT or 4♠, some people use an artificial rebid over 1NT to show it... but I think it is within the range of 3♣ bids in a standard system. I would rather play 4♠ than 5♣ opposite this hand for sure.

 

So I agree with Josh on the bidding, and agree with everyone else who wishes we were playing a better system. :P

If partner would jump shift with that, he deserves to be hanged. To me, this 9 trick hand is a 2♣ opener; but if not, then jump to 4♠ (or 3NT if this shows a hand with solid spades in your methods.)

 

Please let's don't invent bids on three card suits when it isn't necessary. Opposite a partner who does this regularly, I'm inclined to give up on slam--if the three card clubs suit is possible, your club length makes it more likely that he has only three than if you were shorter.

What about with worse spades, like AKxxxxx AQ x Axx? I really dislike 4♠, you would do that on a far weaker hand, that minus one of the side aces, and rebidding 3NT is just dumb. To me 3♣ is the totally obvious choice, and I don't see why this means I deserve to be hanged by partner, who jumped to 5♣ prematurely for reasons I still don't understand. And I agree that it could also even be a doubleton on rarer occasions, such as a similar 7222 hand. As long as partner is aware that the jump shift is required on certain hands like this, there should be no problems.

[keylime]

To me bidding 4 encourages partner to do the wrong thing. Bidding five immediately shows the hand listed and allows pard to reevaluate.

[moysian]

Why this enthusiasm for slam??? Game may even be a stretch against my rags.

 

I bid 3d, hoping pard will bid 3n. If he rebids spades, I retreat to 4c, leaving the decision for game to P. If P rebids 4c, I'll carry on to 5. If he jump rebids 5c, showing a true monster, I'll bid 6.

 

The tough one comes if P tries 3h, asking for help in stopping H. I'll probably try 3n, because now I think we may have 3 quick losers in the red suits. Pard could have something like AKQxx - Kx - Jx - AQxx.

[EricK]

What do you guys think of the idea of swapping responder's support bids so that 3♠ shows ♣ support and 4♣ shows ♠?

[cf_John0]

3♦,might have a contract of 3NT

[pclayton]

I'll bid 4♣. I don't like the methods either, but the fact is that opener sometimes has to make up a bid with a one-suited game force. Jumping to 5♣ can easily hang partner if he holds something like:

 

AKQxxxx

Ax

x

Axx

 

I'm sure some people open 2♣ with that, some people rebid 3NT or 4♠, some people use an artificial rebid over 1NT to show it... but I think it is within the range of 3♣ bids in a standard system. I would rather play 4♠ than 5♣ opposite this hand for sure.

 

So I agree with Josh on the bidding, and agree with everyone else who wishes we were playing a better system. :rolleyes:

If partner would jump shift with that, he deserves to be hanged. To me, this 9 trick hand is a 2♣ opener; but if not, then jump to 4♠ (or 3NT if this shows a hand with solid spades in your methods.)

 

Please let's don't invent bids on three card suits when it isn't necessary. Opposite a partner who does this regularly, I'm inclined to give up on slam--if the three card clubs suit is possible, your club length makes it more likely that he has only three than if you were shorter.

What about with worse spades, like AKxxxxx AQ x Axx? I really dislike 4♠, you would do that on a far weaker hand, that minus one of the side aces, and rebidding 3NT is just dumb. To me 3♣ is the totally obvious choice, and I don't see why this means I deserve to be hanged by partner, who jumped to 5♣ prematurely for reasons I still don't understand. And I agree that it could also even be a doubleton on rarer occasions, such as a similar 7222 hand. As long as partner is aware that the jump shift is required on certain hands like this, there should be no problems.

Any big sngle suited hand like AKxxxxx, AQ, x, Axx could be handled with a auto splinter.

 

Here's a little gadget I play with Chris that Itabashi showed him:

 

After 1♠ -1N:

 

3♣ = Artificial and forces a relay to 3♦, then:

 

3♥ = strong jump shift with 4 hearts

3♠ = big single suiter with spades and requests a cue

3N = club jump shift

 

Direct bids:

 

3♦ = natural with diamonds

3♥ = natural but with 5 hearts.

 

This little tool is easy to remember and doesn't give up anything, far as I can tell.

 

----------------------

 

Joe Kivel has a gadget too, but it starts with a forcing 2N and its a little complicated.

[jdonn]

Any big sngle suited hand like AKxxxxx, AQ, x, Axx could be handled with a auto splinter.

 

Here's a little gadget I play with Chris that Itabashi showed him:

 

After 1♠  -1N:

 

3♣ = Artificial and forces a relay to 3♦, then:

 

3♥ = strong jump shift with 4 hearts

3♠ = big single suiter with spades and requests a cue

3N = club jump shift

 

Direct bids:

 

3♦ = natural with diamonds

3♥ = natural but with 5 hearts.

 

This little tool is easy to remember and doesn't give up anything, far as I can tell.

 

----------------------

 

Joe Kivel has a gadget too, but it starts with a forcing 2N and its a little complicated.

You might not have a shortness. AQJxxx AK xx AQx or so.

 

Just at a glance I can see three things that treatment loses (which is not to say you shouldn't play it). You give them an artificial bid to double. You keep either player from describing anything over the strong jump shift with clubs (imagine opener is 6-4 for example and that you belong in spades, or that responder has a hidden heart suit). And you don't get to show what your fragment is when you are single suited with spades, which is extraordinarilly useful for responder to evaluate, although I suppose if you wanted you could define the 4 level bids by opener over the relay as well.

[pclayton]

Any big sngle suited hand like AKxxxxx, AQ, x, Axx could be handled with a auto splinter.

 

Here's a little gadget I play with Chris that Itabashi showed him:

 

After 1♠  -1N:

 

3♣ = Artificial and forces a relay to 3♦, then:

 

3♥ = strong jump shift with 4 hearts

3♠ = big single suiter with spades and requests a cue

3N = club jump shift

 

Direct bids:

 

3♦ = natural with diamonds

3♥ = natural but with 5 hearts.

 

This little tool is easy to remember and doesn't give up anything, far as I can tell.

 

----------------------

 

Joe Kivel has a gadget too, but it starts with a forcing 2N and its a little complicated.

You might not have a shortness. AQJxxx AK xx AQx or so.

 

Just at a glance I can see three things that treatment loses (which is not to say you shouldn't play it). You give them an artificial bid to double. You keep either player from describing anything over the strong jump shift with clubs (imagine opener is 6-4 for example and that you belong in spades, or that responder has a hidden heart suit). And you don't get to show what your fragment is when you are single suited with spades, which is extraordinarilly useful for responder to evaluate, although I suppose if you wanted you could define the 4 level bids by opener over the relay as well.

If you have these concerns, you'd like the forcing 2N response. I don't have the notes handy, but I can tell you it is very effective in finding 6-3 fits opposite opener's fragment. Of course you give up the ability to show the 18-19 balanced.

 

I think the 3♣ structure is better than standard. Josh, before you were active on here, we had a lot of discussions about these semi-strong hands with single suiters. Several systems (SEF) for instance have calls tailored to show these 17++ - 21-- hands with 4 losers that fall just short of a 2♣ opener.

 

Doubling artificial calls in these auctions are always a red herring to me. With many systems that bring in artificiality; thats an inherent risk. But its a small price to pay.

 

One of my big pet peeves in bidding are phony jump shifts and phony reverses. So I guess I'm biased toward systems that avoid these distortions. :rolleyes:

[jdonn]

Well what I actually like is the 'standard' way with none of these things, where the jump shift may be a little fake, especially in clubs. Go figure. People talk about these things as though they are crimes against humanity, but I think they work just fine as long as responder is aware of the possible hand types.

[joshs]

The way I play SJS auctions (Washington Standard):

 

After

1S-1N-3H

3S waiting. May be be 1-3 in the majors. Opener rebids 3N without any extra shape.

3N Lots of stuff in the minors. At least 2.5 stoppers.

4m natural (some may prefer to play these as cue-bid or as strong raises of the corresponding major)

4H at least 4 card support

4S 3 card limit raise, slam interest

 

 

After minor suit JS's direct raises usually show 5 cards.

 

1S-1N-3C(frequently a 3 card suit with a spade 1 suiter, on rare occasion might even be only 2...)

3D natural, strong 5+ card suit

3H natural, strong 5+ card suit

3S waiting, may be a stiff. Opener rebids 3N without extra shape (which confirms real clubs)

3N Lots of stuff in the reds

4C 5 Clubs, some slam interest or a hand that no longer thinks that 3N is a good idea. Can also be 4 clubs, singleton somewhere, and serious slam interest.

4D/H Splinters or keycard in clubs (4D is keycard if you play kickback) or whatever. 5 very strong clubs or 6 clubs.

4S 3 card limit raise, slam interest.

5C 6 card support, good trumps, not much else

 

Its very common to bid 3 red or 3S and then 4C to show 4 trumps and a decent hand.

 

Etc.

[Mariner1]

[hv=d=e&v=e&s=sjhq4dq9854ckt863]133|100|Scoring: IMP

P - 1♠

1NT - 3♣

?[/hv]

 

Partner shows you a big hand and you suddenly have this big fit.

 

What's your bidding plan?

This is usually solved by experienced pairs by their agreed style. Since that doesn't exist go to basics. 4c should show I was made to bid and have a dog minimum - 5c should show good fit with no control outside of clubs and length in

suit, a K is about all you are showing. You could stick in 3 diamonds however I think you have found your best fit for game and possible slam.

[mike777]

4 ♣ with anybody forcing

(and RCK for clubs with std. partner, maybe not a winner in this situation...)

 

I would like to play Kickback after this, but I cannot confess my pds.

Ya, how can 4c with 4d as kickback now by pard be wrong. I can rebid 5c over any other rebid by partner.

[csarmi]

We play 2nt as GF (6+ spades or 54) thus any 3x is 55+ and GF.

[han]

Well what I actually like is the 'standard' way with none of these things

You are one weirdo Josh.

[Echognome]

I don't have partner's exact hand, but it was something like:

 

[hv=d=e&v=e&s=saxxxxhkxdakca9xx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

As I mentioned, I didn't have the same problem because partner rebid 3NT. I was a bit annoyed because I pretty much make 6♣ whenever I make 3NT. West Lead a ♥ and a ♥ was returned. I played 2 rounds of diamodns and then the ♣A. West plays the ♣J. You then lead a club towards hand and East plays the last small club. As a reminder, your hand is:

 

J Qx Qxxxx KTxxx

 

Drop or finesse? (If you want, to make it more interesting, you can pretend you were playing 6♣.)

 

Also feel free to continue commenting on how the bidding should have gone after a jump shift.

[han]

I must admit that I might have bid only 2C with that hand. While the hand is rich in controls, the suits are so weak that I find it a stretch to force to game. I doubt that I would get to 6C after the 2C rebid.

[jdonn]

Same here, I can't see myself getting beyond 5♣. It is not easy to get responder to cooperate with that hand, especially when short in opener's first suit. But neither 5♣ nor 6♣ is a crime.

[jdonn]

Well what I actually like is the 'standard' way with none of these things

You are one weirdo Josh.

True, but my mother is still proud of me.

[jdeegan]

;) 5♣. I think this is one of those situations where you jump to show extra values and good trump support with NO controls. If partner has manufactured his club suit, we are screwed, but I can't distort my bidding from fear.

[Free]

I don't have partner's exact hand, but it was something like:

 

[hv=d=e&v=e&s=saxxxxhkxdakca9xx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

As I mentioned, I didn't have the same problem because partner rebid 3NT. I was a bit annoyed because I pretty much make 6♣ whenever I make 3NT. West Lead a ♥ and a ♥ was returned. I played 2 rounds of diamodns and then the ♣A. West plays the ♣J. You then lead a club towards hand and East plays the last small club. As a reminder, your hand is:

 

J Qx Qxxxx KTxxx

 

Drop or finesse? (If you want, to make it more interesting, you can pretend you were playing 6♣.)

 

Also feel free to continue commenting on how the bidding should have gone after a jump shift.

Drop.

 

It's not getting more exciting when you're playing 6♣ since you go down a lot in 3NT, but only 1 in 6♣ ;) ;)