Count by third hand

[lowerline]

I would like to have a good rule for this. Hopefully there is an answer that scores 40%...

[mr1303]

Other.

 

I give count if:

 

1) I can't beat dummy's card or finessing

2) There is no shortage (singleton in the suit led) in the dummy

3) Partner hasn't led an honour card that requests a different signal.

4) I won't blow a trick by giving a count signal

[lowerline]

Other.

 

I give count if:

 

1) I can't beat dummy's card or finessing

2) There is no shortage (singleton in the suit led) in the dummy

3) Partner hasn't led an honour card that requests a different signal.

4) I won't blow a trick by giving a count signal

I am talking about the situation when there is an honor card in dummy that is played in trick one... So 3 is not applicable and 4 is, of course, always implied.

 

Do you mean with 2 that when there is a singleton jack in dummy and you can't beat it, that you don't give count? Or does this only apply against suit contracts?

 

Do you mean with 1 that when there is KQx in dummy and you have the ace but decide to duck that you give count i.s.o. attitude?

[ArcLight]

Eddie Kantar and Mike Lawrence have differences of opinion on this issue.

Eddie says one thing (Modern Bridge Defense) and Mike another (Defense CD)

Mike also says the main thing is to have an agreement, ergardless of waht method is 0.0002% theoretically superior.

[bid_em_up]

Do you mean with 2 that when there is a singleton jack in dummy and you can't beat it, that you don't give count? Or does this only apply against suit contracts?

In most cases, when dummy has a stiff, you will give a suit preference signal. Yes, this only applies in suit contracts. In No Trump contracts, partner may still need to know your count, to decide when to continue the suit, or find something else.

 

Personally, I have always preferred CAS (Count, Attitude, Suit preference) in terms of defensive carding priority. Count is always your first obligation unless partners lead specifically asked for attitude. I just find it much easier to defend when I can get an acurrate count on the hand early.

 

Count is also not necessary when your likely count in the suit is already known.

Partner opens 1H and you bid 3H (preemptive, weak hand with 4 hearts) and opps bid to 4S. Partner leads the AH. Dummy shows up with three small hearts. The card you play here should be suit preference, as you are already known to hold 4 hearts, there is no reason to give count.

[dcvetkov]

In most or all case4s, my agreement is to gfive count if you can not top dummy card and is queen or lower, and if u stick to it its opretty useful

 

There are some ambiguity however. :Look at this hand

Qxx

 

Kxxxx XX

 

AJX

 

Playing in NT, West leads a small card, and declarer winning the queen,. Lets say West comes in next, and his next problem is, who has the J, and whether it is safe to lead another one

 

But count is extremely useful; if the situation is like this

 

Qxx

 

KJxxx XXX

 

Ax

 

Now west knows that ace will fall on the second round because of partner count signal at trick 1 and has to guess good without one

 

So u have to decide whether 100% attitude is more important or frequent.

[inquiry]

I seldom give count on opening lead unless partners lead specifically calls for count. My sequence is Attitude, suit preference, count. Which signal give in dictated by opening lead, bidding, dummy cards, bridge logic. Count on opening lead is very low priority for me.

[luke warm]

i agree with ben

[Free]

One of my partners always wants count, so I just give it to him. He is clever enough to find the best continuation.

[lowerline]

i agree with ben

I also agree with the sequence attitude, suit preference, count. So you need a strict rule to define when the count signal applies and another rule to decide when to give SP. Attitude the rest of the time.

 

I think you need to decide on the jack or queen thing. It is marginal but it is necessary to have an agreement to avoid misunderstandings.

[Codo]

My favourite is Obvious shift, but if we cannot agree on this, ASC is right.

 

We have an easy rule: Always Attitude, if the dummy does not have a single in that suit in a suit contract or after the lead of an ace.

 

Of course, it will be theoritically better, if you have more rules, but maybe the more rules you have, the less thoughts you make and as more rules you have as more you can forget, so I can life with simplicity.

 

And if I want to make more rules, I would strongly prefer Obvious shift, these rules seems to work very well.

[han]

This depends on partner. I typically give count when partner leads the king, or when I can't beat dummy's jack or lower against NT.

[sfbp]

I generally make the agreement with partner that if dummy has 3 or more and is not winning the trick then I will signal count.

 

If dummy is winning the SECOND trick (not the first) I will signal suit preference. At suit contract this is most likely a singleton in dummy, although any time pard leads the A and the K is in dummy, suit preference is in order. This should be standard.

 

Otherwise (2 in dummy anytime, or at NT contract when dummy has 0 or 1 cards) I signal attitude.

 

As noted higher up, the important thing is to have AGREEMENT in principle what the signal means. This agreement improves your options by setting what is most frequently the correct (ie needed by the partnership) meaning.

 

Here's the poster child for count at trick 1 in NT

 

partner leads A promising AK

 

Dummy has xxx

 

You hold J842

 

 

If you signal COUNT, partner now knows that declarer has an even number also. Let's hope he could tell if declarer had 4 from the auction.

 

He now continues with the K, dropping declarer's stiff Q remaining.

 

OTOH, if there is only xx in dummy, now I play small (attitude) to show I do not have the Q.

 

If dummy is winning the trick I tend to follow exactly the same rule, count underneath Axx but attitude underneath Ax

[SoTired]

Most play primary signal is attitude, count is second, suit-pref is third. I don't think I could defend properly if count was not first or second priority. Some experts even have a special signal for hand type - 3-odd length suits and 1-even vs 3-even and 1-odd. There are slam hands where that signal is the only one that allows you to avoid a crucial guess.

 

So if third hand is not trying to win the trick, third hand's attitude is obvious so third hand gives count.

 

There are some exceptions:

If dummy has a singleton and partner is leading a top honor, third hand gives suit preference.

If dummy wins the ace my attitude is not obvious, so an attitude signal is required.

Against NT, I don't echo with a doubleton except in those cases where partner is asking for count (ace led) or my attitude is 100% obvious, because I might want to signal attitude when any honor is held.

[mike777]

"Here's the poster child for count at trick 1 in NT

 

partner leads A promising AK

 

Dummy has xxx

 

You hold J842"

 

 

 

If I understand my partners' rants they want me to play an honour, in this case the Jack if they lead the Ace or K vs. NT. Without an honor in my hand they want me to give count on the lead of an Ace or K vs. Nt ;)

[sfbp]

If I understand my partners' rants they want me to play an honour, in this case the Jack if they lead the Ace or K vs. NT. Without an honor they want count on the lead of an Ace or K vs. Nt ;)

That's YOUR agreement.

 

We use K or A to show a different actual a priori holding and then the signal is as described.

[mike777]

"ACE LEADS

 

Against no trump, you'll lead an unsupported Ace when it is in partner's suit, or perhaps you are defending 7NT, or even 6NT on a very unusual auction.

 

But normally, an ace lead means you have a very very good suit, and your only concern is whether or not you can run it by yourself (or should shift at trick two). Therefore, it demands that partner play an honor if he holds one, otherwise he gives count, playing his highest card with an even number, and his lowest card with an odd number....

 

The most common holdings are:

 

AKJT(xx)

AKQT(xx)

 

Example, you lead A from AKJTx...dummy has XXX. If pard plays the queen, you run the suit. If pard plays a high spot implying a doubeton, you know to shift, and hope partner later can lead through declarer's queen. Finally, if pard plays a low spot, you can play pard for three of them, and can bang down the King dropping the Queen (of course if pard had a singleton, you won't run the suit, but you can't anyway if you shift).

 

Example, you lead A from AKJTx...dummy has XX. If pard plays the queen, you run the suit. If pard plays a low spot implying a tripleton, you know to shift, and hope partner later can lead through declarer's queen. Finally, if pard plays a high spot, you can play pard for four of them, and can bang down the King dropping the Queen (of course if pard had a doubleton, you won't run the suit, but you can't anyway if you shift).

 

Similar logic applies when the leader or dummy have different lengths in the suit.

 

KING LEADS

 

If you, as the leader, don't have 4 honors yourself, you probably should avoid leading the ace, as you don't want to set up a trick out of nowhere for declarer (or dummy) when they hold 4 cards in the suit. In fact, if you know that declarer does in fact have 4 cards in the suit, you should probably go ahead and underlead any holding that has less than 4 honors--particularly if you are lacking in side entries.

 

But normally with 3 honors, you just make the standard lead of one of the touching honors, such as the King from:

 

AKJx(x)

AKTx(x)

KQJx(x)

KQTx(x)

 

Across, from a King lead, your third hand does whatever is right for the given situation---meaning if from the lead, the bidding, what appears in dummy, and what his play will reveal to leader, if it is possible (to the leader) for third hand to have a good attitude, he plays attitude. and the rest of the time he needs to give count....or in the rare case, where the suit led can have no future (like a bunch of stoppers appear in dummy), he should play suit preference.

 

So most of the time, across from a King lead, you'll give attitude. Don't throw an honor if you have one, just play your second highest card in that case to encourage. With doubleton honor, you'll have to decide if unblocking will help of hinder the defense....Do NOT unblock, if you are setting up an extra stopper for declarer--which will often be the case if dummy or declarer holds 4 cards in the suit."