Dealing with un-LAWful overcalls

[ArcLight]

We were playing in the main room against a pair that rated themselves as Advanced. One of them in particular made lots of overcalls with one less trump than would be expected. In some cases making overcalls opposite a passed partner.

 

While I consider this dangerous, they got away with it on a number of occasions. Sometimes they found nice saves. Other times they forced us too high. I'd like to say that we set them big time on a few occasions but my pard pulled every single one of my penalty doubles but one, and missignaled on defense on that hand so they got out for -200 rather than -500.

 

In general, its my experience that strong players will certainly make weak overcalls, but I don't usually see strong players sticking their necks out at the 3 level. I wonder about the 2 level.

 

What is your experience against good players:

1. Do they make willy-nilly 2-3 level overcalls or balancing decisions

2. Do they always make preempts a level too high (other than Kit Wollsey, but he can also play better than these guys)

3. Do they make random preempts? (probably!) And if so, how do you deal with it?

 

I think one of the reasons we got bad results is we didn't defend well on a couple of hands. And by pard pulling all my penalty doubles it just encouraged them.

I was really frustrated towards the end, and when pard balanced at the 2 level over one of their preempts, with a suit of Kxxxx plus 8 other HCP, down a bunch I was quite annoyed.

[hrothgar]

I don't want to get into a big debate regarding the accuracy of the LTT (I'll leave that for Lawrence, Cohen, Wigrens, and the like). However, I will simply make the following comment: I believe that that widespread adoption of the LTT significantly improved the competitive judgement of the average player. Even if the Law isn't as accurate as some alternative measures, its a lot better than what most folks were using before hand.

 

Accordingly, I think that its only natural that players are developing methods designed to neutralize the opponent's ability to apply the Law. The easiest way to do so is to knock away the deterministic rules set that underlies the LTT.

 

1. Get to an acceptable contract ASAP (usually 2M) even if it means giving up on identifying the optimal contract

 

2. Make sure that the opponents are uncertain about your degree of fit

 

3. Capitalize on their mistakes

 

Hell, there are entire bidding systems designed arround these principles...

[pbleighton]

Though far from an expert, I have found that WJOs with 5 cards at the 2 level and 6 cards at the 3 level (not to mention simple overcalls at the 1 level with 4 cards) win more than they lose, though some caution is wise when vulnerable.

 

They are also fun ;)

 

Peter

[inquiry]

Overcalls are a tricky business. Let me share my thoughts on your questions.

 

1. Do they make willy-nilly 2-3 level overcalls or balancing decisions

 

Experts will balance frequenty, especially if one side has found a fit. For instance, after 1S-P-2S-P-P-? The pass out seat will surely bid almost all the time. Overcalls are a different matter. If you have found a fit (1S-P-2S-? ) the fourth seat is likely to take some action if his hand is at all suited for a bid. This bid can be actaually quite weak.

 

Now, in a non-fitting action, it is more unlikely a good player will enter on shakey value or suit legnth.

 

2. Do they always make preempts a level too high (other than Kit Wollsey, but he can also play better than these guys)

 

Preempting style varies a lot by individual. Some follow the "reckless" method advocated by Robson/Segal especially not vul versus vul. This entails preempting even on five card suits. I myself have made jump overcalls to the two level on a four card suit, but ignore me, those were just trial bids to see how they worked (surprizingly well). As vulnerability becomes more and more unfavorable, such preempts are left behind. For me, if I am red and they are white, I don't "preempt" as much as bid what I think I can make (hope?).

 

3. Do they make random preempts? (probably!) And if so, how do you deal with it?

 

Random preempts are a double edged sword. I would think that good players don't play random preempts opposite an unpassed partner. However, after partner has denied the ability to open (or perhaps overcall cheaply), then the next hand is free to preempt with whatever style hand he likes. I have held sound opening hands and preempted third seat, and of course been very broke. I am not suggesting others follow this style, but this seems logical. Some very good players play a very disciplined preemptive style, pretty much always.

 

I would not change too much to deal with this style. If there is a pair that is doing trash all the time, you might want to lower your negative double range to catch them when they step out of bounds, but for me, I just keep on bidding as I do against everyone.

[barmar]

The reason that psychic preempts tend to work well is because partner is likely to raise the preempt. Then the opponent with length in your suit will assume his partner is short, and bid more. Of course, this is not good bidding by the opponent -- his partner can see the shortness, so he should be relied on to bid more if appropriate. But players do tend to bid their partners' cards, so this ends up working more than it should against average players.

[hotShot]

First off all you should not take MBC play to serious. Maybe they where just trying how agressive overcalls could me made.

 

Now if you read the texts about the LAW you will find that some hidden place they discus weak two openings with 5 card suits should be successfull, because they follow the law. So 1 level overcalls with 4 cards, 5 card WJO to the 2 level are anticipated fit moves hoping to play a 7-8 card fits on the 1 or 2 level.

Many pairs have simple agreements that don't allow penalty dbl's below 2NT, so if you are non vul. you can get away with a lot, and even going down 2 vul is not too expensive.

[helene_t]

1. Do they make willy-nilly 2-3 level overcalls or balancing decisions

 

Overcalls - no, certainly not when they play against me since they expect to win by bidding disciplined. I've seen them bidding less disciplined in more desperate situations. More seriously, while overcall style varies, kamikaze overcalls tend to identify weaker players. Then again, adhering to some simple rule (whatever that rule might be) for overcalls also identifies weaker players, since there are soooo many parameters that should influence the decision.

 

Balancing - yes, and this is a consequence of the above. You can afford to pass in direct seat with a decent hand that is unsuited for an overcall, trusting partner to make the right balancing decision more often than not.

 

2. Do they always make preempts a level too high (other than Kit Wollsey, but he can also play better than these guys)

 

Certainly not "always". But most good players will often make preempts that are not text-book. The important thing is to stick to your agreed preempt style, whatever that is.

 

3. Do they make random preempts? (probably!) And if so, how do you deal with it?

As others have noted, random preempts are made almost exclusively opposite a passed partner. I have never made agreements with p about adapting our defense to opps' preempt style. I don't think it would make much sense

[keylime]

nota bene: what is about to be wrote here is quite divergent, but is simply my view

 

I frequently use 4 card overcalls when the following conditions are in place:

 

1. Suit quality of KJ9x or better (I like especially AKxx, AQTx, etc.).

2. Over their opening, when my suit is good AND I have THEIR suit in some length.

3. When I'm scared to overcall a 5 card minor due to the potential of getting doubled (I RARELY overcall 5 card minors).

 

Furthermore, the most detailed their overcall structure is, the more involved they will be (mine revolves around 1NT as a t/o bid, with other tweaks).

 

My logic is this one: Most games reached in competition over an overcall is in a major.

 

With regards to preempts, I'm of the perspective that style matters. If you want to fly around in the auction, let pard in on the act. I personally am quite classical in preempts - pass is not an evil word.

 

Balancing: in the expert game, this happens often, even at IMPs. They fight for the partial as if their lives depend on it. I enjoy when they penalty double me at three and I roll it (happened last week to my blissful enjoyment).

 

Penalty doubles: Discuss when it is, and when it isn't. Very important. See the thread about that.