Question after the 5 club bid

[sceptic]

Happy to be where we are, but a thought came into my mind (a strange occourance for those of you that know me)

 

here is the hand

 

2 Club 4 loser hand

 

2 Diamond waiting

 

2NT 22-23 balanced

 

3 Spades Minor suit stayman (Thx bobh for teaching me that)

 

4 Diamonds 4 card diamond suit

 

4NT 1403

 

 

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=sk3htda9764ck8752&w=st72hj86543d8cq93&e=sq964h972dj52cjt6&s=saj85hakqdkqt3ca4]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     Pass  2♣

 Pass  2♦    Pass  2NT

 Pass  3♠    Pass  4♦

 Pass  4NT   Pass  5♣

 Pass  7♦    Pass  Pass

 Pass  

 

my first question is missing the Q Diamonds how do you proceed over the 5 clubs

 

here are my thoughts and I would like to know what you think of them

 

2/. 4NT bidder must have 1!A so we have all keycards

 

3/. bidding 5 Diamonds must be Q ask????

 

4/. it is not reasonable for p to pass 5 Diamonds after that auction?

[Winstonm]

This is certainly reasonable and playable IMO - in an auction where it is inconceivable for 5D to be a sign off it is a waste of a bid to use it as such.

 

Notice though that it is the doubleton club that makes this hand. If opener had held AJx, AKQ, KQxx, Axx the grand is on a spade finesse or black suit squeeze only. Not only should 5D in this sequence ask for the Queen, it should ask for more information when holding the Q. 5H, 5S, 6C could all show doubletons with the Q, 5N for 3343 with the Q, and 6 diamonds without the Q.

[mr1303]

It's risky to use bids like 5D there as a queen ask. Partner may pass it, despite the fact that he has 4 key cards. Much less ambiguous to bid 5H as a Queen ask there, which is the correct way to do it.

[hotShot]

Your partner showed 1 or 4 key cards. If you bid 5♦ now, it means that from what you know it's remotely possible that partner has only 1 key card.

♠ KQx

♥ KQx

♦ KQJx

♣ KQJ

This is a balaced hand with 22-23 HCP.

So 5♦ in this sequence is pass or correct and with 4 key cards partner should correct. But you don't get the information about the queen.

So i would use the next free bid 5♥ to ask about the queen.

[inquiry]

Couple of issues.

 

First, with four keycards, 5♦ would be forcing on your partner and asking for trump queen.

 

Second, did you consider bidding 4♥ over 4♦ as RKCB (call it kickback or whatever, responder can not have hearts on this auction.

 

Third, you need to know about third round control in both diamonds AND Clubs, not just one suit. When Responder shows two suits (as you did here) opposite a balanced hand (as here), you need to use six keycard blackwood. Let's reverse the King and Ace of clubs to illustrate the point. Now opener still shows 4 keycards (the club king will count as one). Now you can ask about queens, find out about the diamond one, then ask in clubs, the doubleton will be all that opener needs.

 

I do all this starting with 4♥, so the bidding would be:

 

2C-2D

2N-3S

4D-4H*      4H = RKCB

4S-4N        4S=1 or 4, must be 4, 4N = queens?

5H-6C        5H = higher queen (diamond)

6H-7C        6C = looking for Kx of clubs

Pass       6H=any bid other than 6D shows it

 

Alternatively, in you method, bid 5♦ over 4♣, partner will show the ♦Q and the heart king. Now 6♣ should be a specific asking bid, and Kx is more than enough to bid the grand.

 

As for your question, 5♦ is absolutely forcing on this auction when opener holds four key cards.

[sceptic]

♠ KQx

♥ KQx

♦ KQJx

♣ KQJ

This is a balaced hand with 22-23 HCP.

 

But you have the K clubs in your hand, how can you construct a hand that does not have the 4 keys covered?

[sceptic]

did you consider bidding 4♥ over 4♦ as RKCB

 

 

Ben

 

excuse my ignorance here, could that not be construed as a singleton or a void?? I dont play kickback or anything fancy

[inquiry]

Your partner showed 1 or 4 key cards. If you bid 5♦ now, it means that from what you know it's remotely possible that partner has only 1 key card.

♠ KQx

♥ KQx

♦ KQJx

♣ KQJ

This is a balaced hand with 22-23 HCP.

So 5♦ in this sequence is pass or correct and with 4 key cards partner should correct. But you don't get the information about the queen.

So i would use the next free bid 5♥ to ask about the queen.

Most decks only have one king of spades and one king of clubs. Maybe you are using a pinoccle deck, but since NORTH holds those honors, I find it slightly against the odds that south has them too.

[inquiry]

did you consider bidding 4♥ over 4♦ as RKCB

 

 

Ben

 

excuse my ignorance here, could that not be construed as a singleton or a void?? I dont play kickback or anything fancy

Well, if you don't play this as RKCB, you can not bid 4♥ as rkcb. Don't invent this on the fly with a partner with whom you have not discussed it. This is why I gave the alternative auction with 5♦ over 5♣ after 4NT as RKCB. Playing 4♥ here as RKCB, that frees up 4NT now to be invitational, the auction can die in 4NT, 5♦, 6♦ and possibly 6NT.

[kenrexford]

This brings up an interesting problem with a "simple" solution. Assuming that 4H or 4S is a cuebid or a shortness bid, then THAT is the solution. The person without the diamond Queen avoids asking. The person with the Queen strains to ask.

 

Thus, assume 4H as a shortness-based slam move. Opener can ask, and the "Queen ask" problem is solved. If 4H is wrong systemically, perhaps 4S is right, and the solution resurfaces.