Where's the thread to predict World Cup winner?

[Gerardo]

Italy- S. Korea 2002: Thanks for the point. The Italians were robbed (and were just paid back against the Aussies, who probably don't have enough power to get a payback).

 

Roland, not saying the advantage is unfair, is is just accepted practice. You are just getting it as you are host. Let's see what happens with S. Africa in 4 years, ok?

 

Said all that just to show the group "lottery" is not a lottery at all, and that hosts get usually the better of it.

 

Another example: Italy 1990

 

Argentina played all group matches in Napoli (3 different stadiums for group matches started in 1998, before that, 1, rarely 2, was the norm).

At that point, Maradona had played there for 6 years, and was an absolute idol. So Argentina was the host team during the matches, spectators wise.

Had Argentina won the group, would had continue in Napoli till quarterfinals.

In semifinals, Italy was going to play in Napoli, and Argentina in some northern city, Milano or Torino,

completely away team for the exact same reason.

 

NO WAY this was not arranged that way!

 

P.S. Argentina ended 3rd in group stage, qualified (6 groups, 4 best 3rds passed), went to play to the North instead, and came back to Napoli in SF against Italy.

It is my candidate to worst runner-up in the history of the WC.

[Codo]

The team of today has very few profiles. Ballack and Klose are excellent players, and Lehmann is a fine goalkeeper. Not much more to write home about.

 

That might be enough to advance further, but I don't think and I don't hope it will. Argentina plays the kind of football I like to see, and I hope it will prevail.

 

 

But this is exactly the point. I love this world cup team, because they really are a team and work great as a team and they really PLAY football, they don´t work it..

 

Through all the years, luck, will power, tactics, great fitness and discipline had been the attitudes for german football.

 

During the last ten years, we learned, that this is not enough, so the next generation, like Lahm, Podolski and Schweinsteiger is able to play football.

 

It is the first time in my life, that german players play one touch football and that at least some, like Klose or Lahm are able to win a 1:1 situation in offense.

So I really hope, that they will survive this great quarter final, because I would hate, if they will turn back the clock and start the german football, they played some 20 years ago.

 

But if "we" should loose, at least we had lost against another marvellous team, no doubt.

 

I understand perfectly well that Sigi, Arend and Roland support their country. That's how it should be. Just like I supported my country in the 1992 European Championship final  ...  against Germany. They had all the stars, we had the better team on the day, and then of course Peter Schmeichel in goal.

 

This championship 1992 had a marvellous finish. I must admit, that right after the game was over, I was quite unhappy. But the next day, I was glad to see the danish team win.

[Codo]

Italy- S. Korea 2002: Thanks for the point. The Italians were robbed (and were just paid back against the Aussies, who probably don't have enough power to get a payback).

No, in my view Italy did not get robbed. The ref was onesided, for sure. But it was their fault to play for a 1:0 and not look for a second or third goal. Same story as 2000 in the final against france in the european Championsship....

If they had made a second or third goal, even the referee had not been able to rob the Italians.

 

Roland, not saying the advantage is unfair, is is just accepted practice. You are just getting it as you are host. Let's see what happens with S. Africa in 4 years, ok?

 

Said all that just to show the group "lottery" is not a lottery at all, and that hosts get usually the better of it.

 

Another example: Italy 1990

 

Argentina played all group matches in Napoli (3 different stadiums for group matches started in 1998, before that, 1, rarely 2, was the norm).

At that point, Maradona had played there for 6 years, and was an absolute idol. So Argentina was the host team during the matches, spectators wise.

Had Argentina won the group, would had continue in Napoli till quarterfinals.

In semifinals, Italy was going to play in Napoli, and Argentina in some northern city, Milano or Torino,

completely away team for the exact same reason.

 

NO WAY this was not arranged that way!

 

P.S. Argentina ended 3rd in group stage, qualified (6 groups, 4 best 3rds passed), went to play to the North instead, and came back to Napoli in SF against Italy.

It is my candidate to worst runner-up in the history of the WC.

 

Yes we agree, the hosts are seeded as if they are great nations. No doubt about this. Sometimes, the host is Italy or Germany and there is no big change, but in 2002, we had two hosts, which are not among the leading nations, so this was quite different.

And it is common practice to place the host in group A and the defending Champion as far away as possible.

You may agree or disagree, but yes this happens in every Worl Cup.

 

I think, it was a great idea to put Argentina to Napoli, just because of Maradonna. It gave them an advantage, sure, but it gave thousnad italians a chance to see their hero again. Nothing wrong with this in my view.

They did the same to Germany. We played many games in Milano, where a lot of Germans played for Inter at that time.

[the saint]

Another example: Italy 1990

 

Argentina played all group matches in Napoli

No. Their first was definitely in the San Siro where they lost 1-0 to Cameroon.

 

I agree they were a terrible finalist, being dependent still on Maradona who by that time was starting to show the effects of his somewhat hedonistic lifestyle.

 

I personally don't want the Argentinians to win, because they still resort to the dark arts IMO. They have played the best football of the tournament so far, but that isn't enough for me.

 

Putting my neutral hat on, I would have liked Holland, the Czechs or Spain to win. But, Holland are out and I don't think this side was worthy of winning a World Cup compared to some of their predecessors, and in Robben they have had the most shameless diver of the event. The Czechs are out too having suffered from injuries and then self-destructing - this team won't all be around in 4 years time. So if England can't win, I want Spain to. They for me have played the best football apart from Argentina, but without all the other stuff.

[Rain]

Not Africa's time. B)

[Aberlour10]

Not Africa's time. B)

but Zizouuuuuu's time...

 

well done Zinedine :)

[hotShot]

Only 8 left and we are almost back to the usual suspects.

 

Argentina

Brasil

England

France

Germany

Italy

Portugal

Ukraine

 

But my impression is that most of them had a hard time getting there.

[the saint]

France deserved it. Spain played with fear in the second half. There were, however, two incidents of the sort I have been bemoaning though. Thierry Henry and Fernando Torres both going to the ground clutching their faces when no contact had been made. Both are great players and although I don't see enough Spanish football to judge Torres' character, it was certainly out of character for Henry (even though I think there is bad blood between him and Puyol after the Champion's League Final). It was a foul by Puyol for a deliberate obstruction, but no contact was made to the face.

 

This is the kind of thing that FIFA must stop. But they refuse to look at events like this retrospectively. Naming, shaming, banning and humiliating those players involved is required. If France lost Henry for 6,8,10 games then its a huge blow. Sadly too, the referee, having been excellent for most of the match, got card happy towards the end, when I doubt there was a single bookable challenge in the match.

 

No team is innocent. Even England - Gerrard dived for a penalty in a warm-up match against Hungary and there was a large debate about whether we should do it because everyone else does, or whether we should take the moral high ground, play cleanly and possibly lose. The debate goes on...

 

Who will win? The lesson from tonight's match is that the team that wants it will win. The French showed some ambition. The event will be won by the players who are prepared to take the games by the scruff of the neck. The candidates so far for me are Messi, Rooney and after the last two matches Vieira. All have shown much more desire to drive their sides on than any other players I have seen yet.

[Sigi_BC84]

Only 8 left and we are almost back to the usual suspects.

 

Argentina

Brasil

England

France

Germany

Italy

Portugal

Ukraine

 

But my impression is that most of them had a hard time getting there.

Yeah, fascinating actually. In the next round, three big names will have to leave the stage.

 

My bet: France, Ukraine and England; I hope the fourth one will be Argentina, but unfortunately it's 50/50 or so odds... England have their chances to advance as well (I've started telling myself that so I won't be so disappointed if it actually happens ;-).

 

Personal nightmare scenario: France, England and Ukraine somehow manage to worm their way through, while Germany gets eliminated in the last second. I don't want to think about it :-).

 

--Sigi

[Sigi_BC84]

They always did well at major championships, right enough, but rarely because of spectacular football. Fight and a little luck with the draw (all teams need that) have been main factors. The team of today has very few profiles. Ballack and Klose are excellent players, and Lehmann is a fine goalkeeper. Not much more to write home about.

Sorry, I can't hold myself back to address this.

 

Firstly, should the question be why a team is successful? You're mentioning "spectacular football". Which teams are actually consistenly guilty of such? Even the Netherlands and Brazil (!) have started to play "result oriented".

No, honestly I think when you're discussing EC and WC success, in the end what counts are titles and results. Many factors are involved, including luck, determination, team play, coaching, individual quality of players and tradition of a team.

 

There are not many teams in the world which are playing consistenly successful soccer in international events -- now like it or not, but one of them is, and will be, Germany. Whinging about their style does not change that.

 

I'm wondering why nobody is mentioning Italy. They often play unfair (ie. foul), they are not afraid of pouring loads of concrete into their own penalty area when they see fit and -- worst of all -- they're terribly sore losers. And Germany gets the blame for playing "boring soccer". This smells a bit like envy. (Before anybody jumps at my throat for mentioning Italy: I am not anti-Italian, I rather find their attitude quite amusing.)

 

Secondly, please, please at least try to consider that the current German team is a young team (as is the Dutch one, mind you). You can't expect a bunch of legends with star qualities here. What I really admire is Klinsmanns ability to finally make a change and rejuvenate the team. So far, it has worked great. They are a team, and that's why they are successful without many stars.

 

I can tell you, Germans are renowned for their defeatism, and rightly so. They like to critize everything, including the national team. Finally this has changed for a few weeks, and most importantly, for a reason. This team deserves to be praised, and they are thriving on it. And I can tell you, it feels really good to all of us.

 

End of rant.

 

--Sigi

[Gerardo]

Another example: Italy 1990

 

Argentina played all group matches in Napoli

No. Their first was definitely in the San Siro where they lost 1-0 to Cameroon.

Stand corrected. That was the WC opening match, as last champion (which, BTW, I think it is much better choice to pen than host, like it is since this WC. And if last champ doesn't qualify (which would be very surprising to me) you can use runner-up, 3rd, 4th, etc)), and that one is usually played in one of the main stadiums.

I personally don't want the Argentinians to win, because they still resort to the dark arts[ IMO. They have played the best football of the tournament so far, but that isn't enough for me.

What dark arts?

Hand of God? Conceded. 20 years ago

Simeone playing up the referee to get Beckham sent off? Also conceded. 8 year ago

 

Please don't forget Owen's dives, thanks :-)

 

OTOH, our current coach, Pekerman, is an outstanding group manager. Since he started with the U20 (and U17), 11 or 12 years ago, his teams serveral times won the Fair Play thophy, for what that's worth.

 

This may be a rare case considering our idiosincracy, but that's they way it is now.

[Codo]

What dark arts?

I think, that he meant something like exsessive time play while leading, playing foul behind the back of the ref., diving for penalties, ugly fouls, these kind of things.

 

At least this is what I disliked in the game when I watched Argentina in former times. But in this WC you can really see Pekermans style. They are still using any legal possibility to win the game with so few power as possible, but I saw not one brutal foul.

 

OTOH, our current coach, Pekerman, is an outstanding group manager. Since he started with the U20 (and U17), 11 or 12 years ago, his teams serveral times won the Fair Play thophy, for what that's worth.

 

And because they know each other so well, they know their running ways, they have good standards and some very expressive players. They are surely one of the best three teams in this tournement.

 

German supporter comment: Bad luck, that such a good team as Argentina has to leave this tournement too early, because they are so unlucky to face Germany in the quart final and not in the final.. ;)

[Gerardo]

Not really a good match, few clear goal situations.

Think we lost it after the 1-0, before that, and after the 1-1 we managed the ball (we didn't have clear situations either).

Good bench management by Klinsmann.

 

Good luck ahead.

 

For TheSaint: We protested a lot. And I don't know what happened at the end :-(

[cherdano]

Not really a good match, few clear goal situations.

Think we lost it after the 1-0, before that, and after the 1-1 we managed the ball (we didn't have clear situations either).

Good bench management by Klinsmann.

 

Good luck ahead.

 

For TheSaint: We protested a lot. And I don't know what happened at the end :-(

I agree Argentina was clearly the better team until the 1-0 (even though Germany was the only one to have a real goal opportunity), but I was surprised they went so passive after that (and that includes the choice of substitutions as you say; Klinsmann was very cool in just exchanging players, not changing the system at all).

 

Very even game, the 1-1 was absolutely fair after 120 min. Lehmann was impressive in the penalties (he touched 3 out of 4 shots), that made the difference. Very happy here, but sorry for Argentina.

[Codo]

I think Germany made more errors in this game then in all four games before. And that was not just because of the great defence of Argentina, a lot had been without any opponent close to the player.

 

It was a thrill but no good game. Both tried and had been successful to hold the opps away from the goal.

Anyway simply a lucky ending for the host and pure bad luck for Argentina.

The 1-1 was absolute deserved, no team had been good enough to win after 90 min or after 120 min.

[mike777]

Are true Football fans happy with these overtime kicks rather than just keep on playing with sudden death?

[hotShot]

They are not happy with this, but it is more sport that throwing a coin.

They tried the suddden death a while, but nobody really liked that too.

[Sigi_BC84]

Very close match, Argentina was very strong. I'm sorry that they have to leave now (I wouldn't have cared if it had been any of the other teams).

 

I think the protests were about Lehmann moving too much right before the penalty kicks. I didn't notice during the match. He did a great job, anyway, and finally that made the difference. Those penalty kick decisions aren't very prestigious, I would have preferred an earlier decision as well.

 

The party in Germany continues, Roland. What's next?

 

--Sigi

[Sigi_BC84]

I just checked the news about the brawl after the match. It says that apparently some Argentinian players continued to taunt the Germans during the penalty shootout. Borowski at some point made a gesture towards them to be quiet.

 

After the match Cufre kicked Mertesacker, supposedly because he had mistaken him for Borowski. Cufre drew a Red Card for that.

 

German team manager Bierhoff, when trying to quell the situation, got attacked as well (apparently he took some visible bruises from it).

 

Emotions, or maybe a part of the dark arts :-).

 

--Sigi

[Aberlour10]

Not really a good match, few clear goal situations.

Think we lost it after the 1-0, before that, and after the 1-1 we managed the ball (we didn't have clear situations either).

Good bench management by Klinsmann.

 

I was really astonished that the Argentinian coach substituted out his

"key player" Riquelme so early.

 

Robert

[the saint]

Not really a good match, few clear goal situations.

Think we lost it after the 1-0, before that, and after the 1-1 we managed the ball (we didn't have clear situations either).

Good bench management by Klinsmann.

 

Good luck ahead.

 

For TheSaint: We protested a lot. And I don't know what happened at the end :-(

I can't say I'm upset at Argentina going out - after all, it makes life easier for England. Poor decisions by Pekerman cost Argentina certainly, not least for me replacing Crespo with Cruz and not Messi. Mertesacker and Metzelder are classic donkey centre-halfs and so Cruz is tailor-made for them to defend against. The quick feet and ball skills of Messi would have been more decisive.

 

Italy look far more threatening than Germany to me, and I'm still quite certain we will beat the Portuguese. :)

 

And I still haven't seen a really good match with two teams playing top-notch flat-out footy. Unless we get one soon, this World Cup will finish a disappointment. We need a signature match desperately.

 

 

For Gerardo:

England v Argentina will always have spice, not least because of the history between the two nations on and off the pitch, but because of the fact that the two cultures are so opposite in many ways. I read somewhere (and my apologies if I am wrong), that there is a part of the street-culture that glorifies the deception and the steal. This of course is a total anathema to the traditional English approach to 'take it like a man'.

 

Down the years, neither side has covered itself in glory from 1966 (when we were probably as bad), to Owen's 'dives' (seen over here as giving them a dose of their own medicine and seeing how they like it for once) through to the present day, and to be honest I think its a good thing - after all, its what gives these encounters that little bit of zing. I, for example, think that the only decent match in 2002 was England-Argentina purely because it was the only match in the entire tournament that had that pure unbridled passion.

 

And anyway, Uruguay are still the dirtiest side in world football by a mile.... :rolleyes:

[hotShot]

Not really a good match, few clear goal situations.

Think we lost it after the 1-0, before that, and after the 1-1 we managed the ball (we didn't have clear situations either).

Good bench management by Klinsmann.

I agree that it was not that much of a show, but it was very good match.

 

Modern football is about team tactics, and this was a perfect display of them.

Both teams demostrated almost perfect zone defence, the forwards acted as the first line of defence, the player with the ball is immediatelly attacked by 2 players.

This is why the average distance a player moves in game has gone up from 4km to 10km during the last 50 years. Under pressure a team can't develope it's play and forced mistakes will occure. Top teams create goals situations from these individual mistakes. The fewer mistakes happen, the less goal scenes will happen. The only other way to goal situations are "standard situations" like corners or free kicks.

[Walddk]

Not for the first time did Rooney lose his head. Not sure why he thinks it's permissible to stamp in an opponent's crotch on a football pitch. Exit Rooney, exit Eriksson, exit England.

 

And now we are waiting for Alan to tell us why England didn't go all the way this time either. Some would claim that it's because the opponents score more goals. Maybe the saint has a better explanation. No players from Southampton on the team? :P

 

Roland

[Codo]

Not for the first time did Rooney lose his head. Not sure why he thinks it's permissible to stamp in an opponent's crotch on a football pitch. Exit Rooney, exit Eriksson, exit England.

 

Roland

Maybe he thought that it was better to kick two balls instead of one?

[the saint]

Not for the first time did Rooney lose his head. Not sure why he thinks it's permissible to stamp in an opponent's crotch on a football pitch. Exit Rooney, exit Eriksson, exit England.

 

Roland

I'm not defending Rooney, but I'm not 100% convinced it was deliberate. If you look at his face, there is no sign of malice on it - he is looking for the ball and trying to plant his foot to run after it. Compared to how players have reacted after a football in the nuts (see Cannavaro last night), Carvalho stayed down for less time than that. A few deliberate studs to the 'nads and he would have been down for longer - therefore Rooney did not apply as much pressure as he would in a deliberate stamp therefore the possibility of it being accidental must be considered - or am I the only person on here who actually watches and analyses. The referee only reacted after Cristiano Ronaldo charged up and started harrassing him. It was notable also how Ronaldo turned away and winked at someone afterwards. Ronaldo also butted Rooney (albeit not forcefully) before the start of the match.

 

We were crap first half and Lennon made a difference after he came on. The ten men who fought to the end were magnificent - Hargreaves, I take it all back. He wanted it. The Portuguese were a complete disgrace, diving and cheating all over the place - notably Ronaldo, Figo and latterly Maniche's disgraceful attempt to get Gary Neville sent off when he went down clutching his face after no contact whatsoever. I'm proud that England don't have to win that way. It may be the World Cup, but its not worth sacrificing your integrity for it. Or maybe that is why we won't win it.

 

On a lighter note. Cristiano Ronaldo is going to get the crap kicked out of him by every full-back in the country next year because he will be a marked man by every single player, newspapar journalist and supporter - including his own! That is if Rooney leaves anything behind after Man United's first training session!! For his sake, Ronaldo had better hope that the right Real Madrid presidency candidate wins so he can fly off to Spain, because he won't have many friends left in England. Thats not a threat, its just a reality. His playing career in England may simply be untenable now.

 

Rooney will suffer an incredible pilloring by the press and fans for getting into a position where he could be sent off (a la Beckham). He will be back. Beckham may never start for England again. Lennon offered so much more.

 

Now, I want the Italians to win it.