Drop Dead Garbage

[Badmonster]

Do I understand correctly that the difference between the two is that with five spades responder will bid 2s with drop dead (removing an option for in invitational hand with with 5 spades and four hearts) in drop dead, while with garbage responder always bids 2h regardless of whether 4/4 4/5 or 5/4?

 

Which is better?

 

Why?

 

Did drop-dead precede garbage? Can anyone pinpoint the years they came into existence?

[glen]

Perhaps these are not beginner/intermediate questions

[Badmonster]

Should I repost elsewhere then?

[ArcLight]

>Do I understand correctly that the difference between the two is that with five spades responder will bid 2s with drop dead (removing an option for in invitational hand with with 5 spades and four hearts) in drop dead, while with garbage responder always bids 3h regardless of whether 4/4 4/5 or 5/4?

 

I might be misunderstanding, but why would you want to get to the 3 level with a weak hand, unless you had great length (6). Better to just pass 1NT.

 

I wonder if you are confusing this with SMOLEN thats used with 5-4 hands that are game forcing.

You respond 2 Clubs, and raise pards major response to game. Otherwise you bid the shorter major at the 3 level over the NT players 2 Diamond response.

 

 

People may consider Crawling, Drop Dead, Garbage Stayman to be the same. There may be some difference, and I'd be curious!

 

 

Mike Lawrence presents a weird match point convention he calls Son of Drop Dead Stayman where you can bid 2C over pards NT with a stiff Heart as long as you have 4-4-4 or better in the other 3 and you bid 2S over the 2D response.

THEN the NT bidder canb pass or bid 3 Clubs which is passed out.

[Badmonster]

typo 2h. Sorry. Fixed now.

[foo]

OK, "Drop Dead" AKA "Suicide" Stayman and "Garbage" Stayman are two different conventions.

 

DDS AKA SS is when you bid Stayman with a weak hand and =4441 or (43)51 or 1C543 or 2C443 (risky) =AND YOU PASS ANY REBID OPENER MAKES=

This is why you _must_ have short C's when you do this.

The idea is that Responder's hand stinks for 1N so you are forcing Opener to play in 2ofasuit.

 

GS is the same basic idea about escaping from 1N. However, in this convention Responder only passes if Opener rebids a Major.

If the auction goes 1N-2C;2D-?? Responder can now either pass or bid 2M (in theory showing 55 or 54 in the Majors and a =WEAK= hand by agreement).

The cost of GS is that Responder loses the ability to use 1N-2C;2D-2M to show good hands since you've agreed that this sequence shows bad hands.

 

I recommend DDS AKA SS.

 

GS has a high cost. Especially if you are playing Strong NT's where the expectation is that Responder will have at least an Invitational hand most of the time when GOP Opens 1N. Pick your poison and be aware that YMMV.

[barmar]

Drop Dead Stayman isn't even a "convention" of its own. It's just an unusual use of normal Stayman. There's nothing in the Stayman convention that says responder promises another bid -- responder is captain and can choose not to invite. The important thing to remember is that 2NT is not a valid response to Stayman, although I've occasionally seen some people bid it for some reason (I think they use it to show a max with no 4-card major, but some just don't realize that 2♦ is the way to show no 4-card major).

 

Like foo, I'm also not a huge fan of Garbage Stayman. Unless you get lucky and hit a 4-4 fit, you're probably not much better off in 2Maj than 1NT. Even if you have a short side suit, chances are decent that the 1NT opener has it controlled; and if not, you'll end up ruffing in the long hand and lose control of the trump suit.

 

With several of my regular partners I use 1NT-2♣-2♦-2Maj as an invitational form of Smolen, showing 5-4 majors with 5 in the unbid suit and 8-9 HCP.

[jchiu]

The above posts are relatively close to what an average BBO player regards as "Garbage Stayman". However, the current trends of invite conservatively, accept freely (i.e. bid game because it's there to bid) has definitely modified this structure into a more efficient treatment. Observe that there is no point to telling the opponents about a four-card major, which only helps the opening leader to find the killing lead. Balanced invitational hands go through 2N (1N-2♣; 2♦-2N), while 54 major hands are redefined as signoffs or game-forcing.

 

How often have you held the hand Qxxxx x xx Qxxxx, transferred to ♠, and found that partner held Jx AQx Kxx AKxx as he floundered in 2♠ while all the weak notrumpers are finding 3♣ without sweating? This first modification of garbage stayman defines the sequence 1N-2♣; 2♦-2♠ as spades and a minor, at least 5♠ 4+m, usually 55+. Barring an offshape opener (e.g. 2=4=5=2), partner must bid 2N with less than HH or xxx in spades. The big ramification of this is: in the sequence 1N-2♣; 2♦-2♥, responder can have five spades and four hearts, which means opener must take a false preference to 2♠ with equal length. Contrast this to normal Garbage Stayman where opener passes 2♥ with equal length.

 

Especially at matchpoints, Garbage Stayman is a must for me. Even when I play the above treatment, I have tactically chosen to pass 2♦ with (usually) club shortness and ♦ Axx(x). The tactical advantage comes from allowing your RHO one fewer turn to compete, while the ♦A helps control the indicated trump lead if LHO chooses to defend.