How much do you downgrade?

[Echognome]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=skt93hakjt74dc962]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1♦ - 1♥

2♦ - ?[/hv]

 

You're actually playing total points scoring, but it's more similar to IMPs than the other options.

 

What's your call now?

[mike777]

2s

 

Pard may have 4spades and 7D and rebid 2D.

[inquiry]

2♦ is not the rebid I wanted to hear, and I would downgrade this hand a good bit. I would not force to game.

 

IF you want to find someone who would "quantitiate" how much to downgrade by, you might want to look at how Zar does it. If you follow Zar points, the downgrade on this hand is extensive. See his zipped book on hand evaluation. Basically he counts something he calls ZAR Fit or ZAR misfit points. It is the difference between suit legnths, he seems to calculate both the differences for all 4 suits (he calls it M4), or for just the two longest suits (M2). M2 is often easily estimated, as here.

 

Partner has six plus diamonds, and if he will raise with unbalanced hand on three card suits, at most two hearts. So M2 is AT LEAST 6-2 plus 6-0, or 10 zar points. With a misfit ZAR downgrades the hand by the value of the difference. In this case 10 Zar points, which is the value of one ACE and one KING, or two levels of bidding (each level is worth 5 zar points). This is a step devaluation indeed. Using Zar evalulation, the suggestion would be to get out of the bidding ASAP.

 

I see that mike thinks a 4-4 spade fit might also exist. If that did, this hand would be worth a lot more via ZAR points, as with fits, you do not subtract misfit points.

 

(BTW, if partner has two hearts, this is not technically a misfit (8 card heart fit) and zar would not subtract the 10 points, so this is a fuzzy area for me in using his evaluation). With superfits, he adds misfit points, with misfits he subtracts them, with regular fits (such as if partner has two hearts) he ignores them,

[mike777]

Ya something like this came up last night..pard rebid 2D at MP with:

 

Axxx....x...AJT9xxx...K

[kgr]

Ya something like this came up last night..pard rebid 2D at MP with:

 

Axxx....x...AJT9xxx...K

I would rebid 1♠ with this

[pbleighton]

"Pard may have 4spades and 7D and rebid 2D."

 

Not one of my partners B)

 

OTOH, I play a 1S rebid as absolutely forcing.

 

I would rebid 3H, a slight downgrade.

 

Peter

[kgr]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=skt93hakjt74dc962]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1♦ - 1♥

2♦ - ?[/hv]

 

You're actually playing total points scoring, but it's more similar to IMPs than the other options.

 

What's your call now?

2♥ invitational for me. a direct 2♥ would have been Weak and 4-8 HCP.

Not having this agreement...3♥

[EricK]

Surely 2♥ is at least forward going on this auction at IMPS, whether or not you play WJS.

 

This should allow us to at least get to our best fit and not get too high, while still keeping game in the picture if partner turns up with something in ♥ (or ♠).

[keylime]

Pard in my eyes has denied 4 spades by their rebid. This hand is now in the invite zone - I table 2.5 ♥.

[jdeegan]

:P 3♥ not forcing, I hope. The intermediate spots in both majors make this a very good playing hand. I can expect to make six or seven tricks opposite nothing much. Partner may not fit, but, at least he opened the bidding, although he made a minimum rebid (BTW, there is no way my pard can have four spades on this auction).

 

♠ Axx

♥ x

♦ KQ109xx

♣ Kxx

 

is a generic minimum 2♦ rebid. It gives a play for 4♥ or even 3NT, but not a very good one. For this reason, I feel that I can only invite game. I see no reason at all to consider 3♥ to be anything else but invitational.

[luke warm]

i don't understand not bidding spades with 4 unless they're pitiful... it just shows 4+ spades with longer diamonds... on this hand 3♥ invite looks normal, tho 2♥ is ok if the bidding that goes 1♦ : 2♥ can show something like xxx, AKJxxx, x, xxx

[mike777]

7-1 fits very often play better than 4-4 fits. I can understand rebidding a 7 card suit over a 4 card suit but I see many disagree. :P

 

I see that this thread's hand is IMPs.

[pclayton]

I don't have strong feelings about this. If you take a sampling of 2D rebids, 8 to 10 tricks is possible.

 

I suppose 3H looks normal enough with 2 an underbid and 4 an overbid.

[han]

7-1 fits very often play better than 4-4 fits. I can understand rebidding a 7 card suit over a 4 card suit but I see many disagree. :P

 

I see that this thread's hand is IMPs.

Mike, I agree that it is barely possible for partner to have 4 spades. For instance, with xxxx x AKJ10xxx A I might rebid 2D. But imo responder you should never play opener to have 4 spades. If responder keeps this possibility in mind then opener is hiding his spades too often.

 

 

I would rebid 3H.

[toothbrush]

2s

 

Pard may have 4spades and 7D and rebid 2D.

I think partner shouldn't bid 2♦ then, but 1♠.

 

After 2♦ i do my normal bid: 3♥. You have too many values that make game possible. 2♥ can be bid with ♠432 ♥AQ5432 ♦- ♣5432 and your hand is much stronger.

[Codo]

Pd denied 4 Spade, but I still bid 2 ♠ to show mine...

 

IF he rebids 2 NT or 3 in a minor, I bid 3 Heart and he will have a quite good understanding of my hand.

 

Okay, opposite a big misfit I will get too high, but maybe we can find a good 6-2 or 4-3 fit in a major...

[Double !]

2s

 

Pard may have 4spades and 7D and rebid 2D.

I certainly hope that partner would not by-pass a 4-card spade suit, even with 6 or 7 diamonds. One reason for this is, as I play it, a 2S rebid/ reverse by responder wouldn't necessarily show 4 spades once opener didn't rebid 1 spade but it would show something in the suit. Failure to rebid 1 spade, in my tattered book, denies 4+ spades. I prefer to bid out my shape until we know what the final contract should be.

 

While I guess a case could be made for simply bashing 4 hearts especially at total points (let the opps guess what to lead), I think that it is better to rebid 2S followed by 3H to give partner a choice of contracts. It describes a decent 6-card heart suit with something outside in spades (I hope), and hopefully should put partner in a better position to select the final contract. An immediate rebid of 3H, forcing or not, could leave partner guessing without a sound spade stopper, so I don't like 3H/ 2D.

 

And if I'm wrong about pushing to a game with this hand, I lose 50 or 100 versus reasonable chance for making a game. Those 9-10s are worth a little more IMO.

 

DHL

[moysian]

For starters:

 

1. The hand is way too strong for 2h, and a bit too strong for 3h (inviting). Replace the J10 H with xx and I ivnite with 3h.

 

2. I don't need trump support to play in a H contract

 

3. Partner does not have 4s, PERIOD!

 

I bid 2s (force), and await pard's next bid.

 

He'll raise hearts with three; otherwise if pard's values are in spades, he may raise, and I bid 4h. (Hopefully partner will not force me to play a Moysian.)

 

Pard's outside values may be in clubs, not spades. In that case he's apt to bid 2n with a bad minimum (or 3d). I then bid 3h, which should end the auction if partner abhors hearts, or 4h otherwise.

 

With a better hand (and a misfit), partner will bid 3N. I feel more comfortable playing 4h than hoping to to set up hearts in 3n with a doubtful entry in spades. At least we should have the values to give game a shot.

[cf_John0]

2♠ for PD's options from pass,3♦,3♥,or else

[SoTired]

For starters:

 

1. The hand is way too strong for 2h, and a bit too strong for 3h (inviting). Replace the J10 H with xx and I ivnite with 3h.

 

2. I don't need trump support to play in a H contract

 

3. Partner does not have 4s, PERIOD!

I agree with that analysis, but not the conclusion. AKJ10xx is a self-sufficient suit. Opener has a minimum, so there is not slam. Even in the unlikely event opener had 4spades, hearts figures to be the best contract.

 

So --- 4H --- Stop playing around, you have all the info you need to place the final contract. I will not downgrade an opening bid with a self-sufficient suit. This is NOT an invitational hand.