What does this double show?

[cherdano]

At IMPs (pick the vulnerability in case you think it matters), the bidding goes

(2♣*)-P-(2♦*)-2♥

(3♣)-4♥-(5♣)-X

 

2♣ was precision, 2♦ the usual ask, then partner overcalled 2♥ and finally makes a double of 5♣. What kind of hands does this show? Doesn't matter because it's pure penalty?

 

(To those who recognize the hand -- I don't think the actual hands matter much since my decision was wrong regardless of what the double showed, and that's not why I am asking this question here.)

 

Arend

[Echognome]

Well I'm not in the school that thinks it's pure penalty. Pass by partner is not forcing, so he can double or bid on if he thinks it's your hand. That's all. I do think double is showing that he has a more defensive oriented hand and that he doesn't think you can make anything at the 5-level opposite most hands for your 4♥. So in that sense, I'd have to have an extraordinary hand to bid on.

[hotShot]

We bid game first,

game was bid unforced (4♥ over 3♣) and

the 5-level belongs to opps.

So dbl is (almost) pure penalty, and pass would have been forcing.

 

The only reason I could think of to change my mind, would be a preemptive rise to 4♥, but you did not mention that.

[cherdano]

I did not ask partner, but I am almost sure pass is non-forcing. (It would be non-forcing with all my regular partners.)

[whereagles]

Well, pure penalty it cannot be. No way pard is going to show up with KQJT of clubs in this auction :) It's an an hcp double.

[mikeh]

It's penalty.

 

Not a 'trump stack' penalty, but a penalty double nonetheless.

 

North is limited: no 4♣ cue on the way to 4♥, so 4♥ is almost always bid primarily on shape in these auctions. I would not take 4♥ as establishing a forcing pass: North bids 4♣ over 3♣ to establish a force.

 

North can pull a penalty double on a freak...... but he had better be right.... say 2=5=6=0, as an obvious example.

[han]

I agree with Mikeh.

[jchiu]

Could someone explain pass-double inversion? I recently read about it in an application to game-forcing strong club auctions when the enemies interfere with 3♠ or higher. Where else does it apply (here maybe?) and what are its advantages?

[mikeh]

Could someone explain pass-double inversion?  I recently read about it in an application to game-forcing strong club auctions when the enemies interfere with 3♠ or higher.  Where else does it apply (here maybe?) and what are its advantages?

It does not apply here: unless, in your partnership, 4♥ created a forcing situation. In other words, the inversion does not, in itself, alter when a force has been established: it merely changes (inverts) the action that one takes when one has decided not to bid. Thus, pass suggests a hand with which more old-fashioned players would double while double suggests a hand with which more old-fashioned players would make a forcing pass.

 

The inversion has nothing to do with basic method: while I do not use the inversion (more from laziness than anything), two good friends of mine do in their partnership, and they use a 2/1 method.

[MickyB]

Jason,

 

As Mike says, the pass-double inversion only applies in FP situations. My understanding is that you pass when you would have doubled and double when you would have passed, except that you still show a slam-try by passing and then pulling partner's double.

 

The advantage of the inversion is that partner is more likely to double when you make a penalty pass than when you make a non-penalty pass. This makes it more likely that you can show a slam-try, by passing and then pulling partner's double.

 

I've never actually played it, so hopefully someone will correct me if I've got anything wrong...

[Echognome]

The pass-double inversion is mentioned several times in Meckstroth's book.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

the dbl is penalty, ... pass would not

have been forcing, only the 4H bidder

knows, why he bid 4H.

The 4H bidder can remove the dbl, but this

would be rare.

5 card support, void in clubs and a strong

side suit (=> most likely 5-5-3 pattern),

i.e a hand, which has a chance to produce

enough tricks, that 5H has a chance.

 

This will most often happen red vs. green,

because in this case, you may convert +100

into -100 /-200, but you may get 600.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[helene_t]

Agree with Marlowe.

 

Of course pass would not be forcing - the auction suggests that the board belongs to the opps allthough this may not be so. It is possible that opps are in a forcing-pass situation, but we can't be.

[Finch]

Double is penalties, pass is non-forcing.

 

The non-forcing nature of the pass is very clear on this auction, when partner could have bid 4C to establish a forcing pass and chose not to.

 

The 4H bidder can pull the double, but only on an exceptional hand. I don't think a club void by itself would count as exceptional: the opponents are likely to have a very large club fit here.