And yet another 6-level decision

[whereagles]

[hv=d=s&v=b&s=sakxxhktxdak8xckx]133|100|Scoring: MP

Match points, mixed field.

 

You pard

2NT 3♦ (transfer)

3♥ . 6♣ (natural, choice of slams)

??[/hv]

Simple option here: either you bid 6 or 7♥. Don't even think of bidding 6♦, intending it as some sort of "heart grand slam invite" because pard won't understand :)

 

So, 6 or 7?

 

Edit: well, I forgot one thing. Seeing this is matchpoints, you can also try 6NT.

[mr1303]

Presumably partner could've bid something other than 6♣ if he was interested in hearing 7 from me? Just so that I've got this right, partner is only asking me to choose between 6♣ and 6♥.

 

In which case I bid 6♥. I think anything else is a breach of partnership discipline.

[Wackojack]

The options to my mind are 6♥ or 6nt. 6♥ might give you average minus. If you can make 7♥, you almost certainly can make 6nt and there are many hands where 6nt makes and 7♥ does not. If partner bids 6♣ you surely don't have more than 1 club loser. So I will go for 6nt for very little risk and even if 7♥ is cold, 6nt will score well

[Echognome]

Count me for 6♥. Partner asked me to choose between 6♣ and 6♥, so I choose.

[cherdano]

No way I will bid 7.

If partner is sane, then 7 has no play.* I have a wasted K and only 6 points in partner's suits. I bid 6♥ as requested. (Btw, 8 controls is just above average for a 20 point hand, IIRC.) IMHO would be an insult to play partner for AQ-5th in both suits, or AQ-6th of ♥ and A-5th of clubs.

To say it differently, except for possibly (likely) wasted K's, all I have are keycards. If they are enough to make 7, partner could have asked for them.

 

Arend

 

Edit:

(*) I meant to say "can't be better than a finesse", having no play is an overbid.

[mikeh]

6♥: anything else is an insult to partner...anouncing that you know partner's hand better than he does.

 

If 7♥ is a good, sound contract, then he has bid his hand badly.

 

Neither your game nor his will improve if you cater to poor bidding on his part.

 

When you are correct, he will not improve, and when you are wrong, the damage done to the partnershp is immense.

 

If you should be in 7, bid 6 and explain (after the game) where he went wrong and why.

[whereagles]

Well, to me it's kinda surprising that everybody submits to "partnership discipline" and no-one mentions that you have one of the very best hands you could possibly have in this auction. (The *only* better hand is same one with the heart queen.)

 

I mean.. sure pard knows what he's doing, but he couldn't possibly guess our hand fits so well. A hand with 20 hcp is very independent. I don't consider it lack of respect to take a flier with such an hand if the situation is truly exceptional.

[Free]

What can partner have to force to slam and have at least 5-5?? He needs both Aces for sure, and probably another queen in his suits. Which one is the question...

 

It's MP, so I'll gamble and bid the grand.

[Blofeld]

6♥.

 

I can see the appeal of 6NT, but not of 7♥.

[cherdano]

Well, to me it's kinda surprising that everybody submits to "partnership discipline" and no-one mentions that you have one of the very best hands you could possibly have in this auction. (The *only* better hand is same one with the heart queen.)

 

I mean.. sure pard knows what he's doing, but he couldn't possibly guess our hand fits so well. A hand with 20 hcp is very independent. I don't consider it lack of respect to take a flier with such an hand if the situation is truly exceptional.

Here is a hand partner could have where his bidding isn't silly: ♠Qx ♥QJxxx ♦ x ♣AQJxx. Extremely unlikely from his point of view that a grand is on, but with 32-33 hcp partner "knows" you want to play slam, so he picked the fast route to let you choose the right one.

 

Anyway, in case you didnt notice, you have 1-2 wasted kings, no 3rd round control in your fit suit, and only two aces. I would certainly be willing to bid 6♦ here (with an understanding partner) to show a 2N opening that is exceptionally good opposite a ♥-♣ twosuiter (♠Axx ♥AQTx ♦AKxx ♣ Kx). This one simply is not. It's good, but not exceptionally good.

 

Arend

[mikeh]

Well, to me it's kinda surprising that everybody submits to "partnership discipline" and no-one mentions that you have one of the very best hands you could possibly have in this auction. (The *only* better hand is same one with the heart queen.)

 

I mean.. sure pard knows what he's doing, but he couldn't possibly guess our hand fits so well. A hand with 20 hcp is very independent. I don't consider it lack of respect to take a flier with such an hand if the situation is truly exceptional.

The point is that your hand is good, but he could have asked you to evaluate for grand and he chose not to. He may have a difficult hand: say x AQJxxx void QJxxxx.

 

He could have taken a slow route: a route that involved you.. he chose not to do so.

 

Whereagles: your posts consistently reflect a strong desire on your part to control the auctions: to be the partner making all of the important decisions. This is no different. Your partner asked you to choose between small slams, and you want to bid grand. Grand may make: no-one can argue that. But if grand is a good contract (as opposed to one that makes on the lie of the cards), partner HAS MADE A MISTAKE.

 

This is a good hand, better than average for 2N, even. But it is not an unusual hand in context: you hold only 2 Kings in partner's suits.

 

Say you held Axxx K10xx AKx AK: now that is a hand on which I can see bidding 7♥ :)

[jdonn]

I once held A Qxxx AKQJx Axx, it went (3♣) 3NT (P) 6♥ (P). I bid 7♥, doubled and down when partner held KQJ KJT9xxxx - KQ.

 

Not too long after I opened 1NT with AKx xx AJTxxx Ax. It went 2♦ 2♥ 3♦ 4♦ 6♦. I bid 7♦ and went down opposite Q KQJT9 KQxx KQJ.

 

I'm not saying partner bid correctly, or even well, in either case. I simply don't take stabs at grands any more when I wasn't invited to do so. 6♥.

[pclayton]

Curious hand.

 

While I like this holding (don't love), the hands that pard rates to have either make 6N OR 7H excellent (or at least playable), but I can't which. Typical hands could be: xx, AQJxx, x, Axxxx or xx, QJxxx, x, AQJxx.

 

If this was a pickup partnership, I would concerned that pard would fear 4C would be interpreted as KCB, so 6C becomes a 'practical' bid. Pard may have a hand that is stretching for 6, or a hand just shy of 7.

[whereagles]

1.

Whereagles: your posts consistently reflect a strong desire on your part to control the auctions: to be the partner making all of the important decisions. This is no different.

 

2.

But if grand is a good contract (as opposed to one that makes on the lie of the cards), partner HAS MADE A MISTAKE.

 

3.

Say you held Axxx K10xx AKx AK: now that is a hand on which I can see bidding 7♥ :)

 

4.

He may have a difficult hand: say x AQJxxx void QJxxxx.

1. That's not it. It's just that I have this theory that a strong hand, because it's very independent, is allowed to take charge on special occasions, EVEN IF IT'S LIMITED.

 

2. I understand that, but I prefer to win at table than to win the post-mortem. I don't mind taking the blame if it goes wrong. I just feel it's right to bid 7 and I usually follow my feelings. It's nothing personal to pard.

 

3. See? You agree with my point #1 after all! :)

 

4. Well, I agree he might have a difficult hand to bid, but I can hardly believe we would bid a slam if there could be 2 aces out. That's why I'm crediting pard with the missing aces.

[whereagles]

I once held A Qxxx AKQJx Axx, it went (3♣) 3NT (P) 6♥ (P). I bid 7♥, doubled and down when partner held KQJ KJT9xxxx - KQ.

 

Not too long after I opened 1NT with AKx xx AJTxxx Ax. It went 2♦ 2♥ 3♦ 4♦ 6♦. I bid 7♦ and went down opposite Q KQJT9 KQxx KQJ.

 

I'm not saying partner bid correctly, or even well, in either case. I simply don't take stabs at grands any more when I wasn't invited to do so. 6♥.

There's, of course, a lot going for this. Especially if your pard has this tendency not to ask for aces :)

[jdonn]

I once held A Qxxx AKQJx Axx, it went (3♣) 3NT (P) 6♥ (P). I bid 7♥, doubled and down when partner held KQJ KJT9xxxx - KQ.

 

Not too long after I opened 1NT with AKx xx AJTxxx Ax. It went 2♦ 2♥ 3♦ 4♦ 6♦. I bid 7♦ and went down opposite Q KQJT9 KQxx KQJ.

 

I'm not saying partner bid correctly, or even well, in either case. I simply don't take stabs at grands any more when I wasn't invited to do so. 6♥.

There's, of course, a lot going for this. Especially if your pard has this tendency not to ask for aces :P

Your pard didn't ask for aces either.

 

He won't be happy with you when he gets doubled holding - AQxxxx - QJxxxxx.

 

Also note, the hand you hold is not even as good as it might be. You have no length in either of partner's suits, and definite wastage outside those suits.

 

This is just a classic case of the good hand getting excited and overbidding, but even worse since he was not invited to do so.

 

Also never forget, the other table might be in game. Even when it seems unthinkable, it happens a lot. My second example from the last post, as impossible as it seems, the other table was in game. I am not kidding.

[whereagles]

1.

He won't be happy with you when he gets doubled holding - AQxxxx - QJxxxxx.

 

2.

Also never forget, the other table might be in game. Even when it seems unthinkable, it happens a lot. My second example from the last post, as impossible as it seems, the other table was in game. I am not kidding.

 

3.

This is just a classic case of the good hand getting excited and overbidding, but even worse since he was not invited to do so.

 

1. Hum... yeah I guess it's easy to come up with examples where you're an ace off. But how likely is it that pard holds a 66 or 76 with an ace out?

 

2. There was no other table, rather, 40 other tables. It was matchpoints :P

 

3. Well, the point is a 2NT opener is independent enough to produce a trick or two above the expectation if the hand fits. For instance, pard might have bid like he did on grounds that he had no way to find out about a grand. If he didn't stretch to bid 6, then my hand can easily produce a trick above expectation.

 

Well, maybe it was reckless to bid 7, bit I did so, on grounds that if pard didn't have the heart queen, I might still finesse for it. He actually held a good hand:

 

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=shaqj9xdjxcaq7xxx&s=sakxxhktxdak8xckx]133|200|Scoring: MP

Me pard

2NT 3♦

3♥ . 6♣

7♥[/hv]

Ok, maybe pard should have bid his hand differently. Grand is cold, bar bad breaks. Needless to say, the bad breaks were there...

 

LHO led the ♠J, taken in hand while dummy discarded a club.

 

♥K and ♥up sees LHO discarding a spade. Still cold on 3-2 clubs, but upon a club back to the king, RHO plays the ♣10...

 

Now 3 rounds of trumps followed. LHO discarding another spade, a diamond and the ♦10 (an error).

 

Obviously, LHO doesn't have the diamond queen, so I run the jack of diamonds, covered by RHO (another error, as it cleared up the position) and taken in hand as LHO discards.

 

A club up confirms the 4-1 break, but the finesse over RHOs 9x of diamonds is open and 7 rolls in.

 

Ok, that was a bit of a soft defense, but I did give it all I had.

 

In retrospect, I think 6NT would be the best bid over 6♣, not 7♥. 6NT= would be good for 84%. 7♥ was 92% (someone somehow made 7NT).

[mike777]

I notice you guys really like to bid your shorter majors before longer minors with 2 excellent suits. :P

[whereagles]

I notice you guys really like to bid your shorter majors before longer minors with 2 excellent suits. :P

Might be technically wrong, but does make life easier :)

[jdonn]

haha righhhhht, life was so easy on this hand, you just knew it was cold when you bid it :P

[mike777]

Looking at both hands this may be a bit too double dummy bidding but one could hope.......

 

 

2nt=3c

3s=4c

4d=5c

5d=7nt or 7clubs.

 

4d=rkc for clubs

5c=2 with Q

5d=grand slam try

7nt= MP bid, a bit double dummy perhaps with the hands in front of me? but I can really see reaching 7c or at least 6nt on this auction.

 

I guess you might even bid 5H over 5clubs showing the Heart K and a grand slam try but again seems easier looking at the hands. :P.

[whereagles]

haha righhhhht, life was so easy on this hand, you just knew it was cold when you bid it  :P

In fact, it's always cold. Leftie has

 

JT9xxx

x

Tx

J98x

 

On 4 discards he has to let go 3 spades and a diamond (otherwise pard is subject to a spade/diam squeeze on the last club). After he lets go a diamond, you can run the diam jack, smothering the 10, and later finessing the 8. Some sort of compound guard squeeze of the second kind, I guess.

 

Naturally, I wouldn't have bid it if I didn't have the 8 of diamonds :P

[cherdano]

1. Hum... yeah I guess it's easy to come up with examples where you're an ace off. But how likely is it that pard holds a 66 or 76 with an ace out?

I still think my example of x QJ9xx Qx AQJxx is pretty realistic. (And unlike Josh's 76 hands, partner would be right in knowing that a grand is almost impossible.)

[mikeh]

 

2. I understand that, but I prefer to win at table than to win the post-mortem. I don't mind taking the blame if it goes wrong. I just feel it's right to bid 7 and I usually follow my feelings. It's nothing personal to pard.

 

.

You misunderstood my post; and that misunderstanding is central to why I so dislike your approach to the bidding of strong hands, as evidenced in this thread and many others.... please note that my dislike is NOT of you, but of your approach to this aspect of the game.

 

I do not advocate a 6♥ bid, and later discussion with partner should he have misbid and thus missed a grand, so as to win the post-mortem.

 

If partner has misbid this hand, then he will probably continue to misbid other complex hands in the future. Most often, in my experience, the misbidding of complex hands arises in part from a lack of knowledge, as to how to bid them, and in part from a lack of confidence, whether in oneself, in partner, or both.

 

If you, as the 2N bidder, consistently breach discipline, rescuing partner from his errors, two things will happen to him.

 

1. He will not learn to bid the complex hands correctly

 

2. There will inevitably be times when his bidding has been correct and your call will turn the good board into a disaster, and he will lose confidence in how he bid it (even tho it was correct) and in your reliability as a partner

 

If you bid 6♥ and miss a good grand, go over the auction without dumping on him.. give him the tools to bid more accurately, and the confidence that, as a partnership, you can get there without either partner masterminding.

 

Being a member of a partnership in which each player treats the other's bidding as if it were correct, without masterminding, is a very enjoyable experience. A strong partnership elevates the game of both partners. But trust and respect for partnership discipline are essential... in this auction, partner knows that you could hold the hand you held: indeed, you could hold an even better one.

 

Axx K10xx AKx KJx is not even a 2N opening, yet one would should be able to reach a grand on that hand. So to say that partner, bidding 6♣, could not reasonably expect you to hold your actual hand is nonsense. Yet he made no effort to investigate grand... either he made an error or he has a hand opposite which an average-plus hand offers little play for 13 winners.

 

The truth is that your partner bid poorly (on the actual hand), you guessed 'correctly', and you think that that represents an interesting hand, with (I assume) educational value for readers of BBF. I disagree. An interesting hand, or bidding problem, is one that offers reasonable choices based on partner not having made basic errors.

 

I doubt that showing 100 successful examples of masterminding will help any one play the game better... but it sure could hurt a lot of advancing players who begin to think that being superman is the way to win... rather than learning to work within a partnership.

[luke warm]

Count me for 6♥. Partner asked me to choose between 6♣ and 6♥, so I choose.

that's it in a nutshell... whether it's pickup or a long term p'ship, i'd bid 6♥ here and then deal the next board... later we can discuss this and similar hands to come to some sort of agreement as to how they should be bid