Which Game?

[Echognome]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sqth83dak74ckt742]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

I imagine this hand would be difficult in standard as well, but I'm going to give you the hand as it was played in our system. The auction went:

 

1♥ (1) - 1♠ ®

1NT (2) - 2♣ ®

2♦ (3) - 2♥ ®

3♥ (4) - ?

 

® Relay

(1) 10-15 hcp, 4+♥, could be canape

(2) 44 or better majors

(3) 3-suited, short minor

(4) 5=4=4=0

 

You somewhat regret relaying (you had other choices on the hand). However, you created a GF and now you have to decide what game you want to play.

 

So which is it and why?

 

(Note: you may want to consider who is playing what contract.)

[whereagles]

3NT. 5♦ is a long shot and that QT of spades might help taking 5 tricks. Besides, if opps are awake, they'll lead a diamond vs. 5♦ and you might end up short of a trick or two.

[Free]

How will we get to 9 tricks in NT? I'm a 4♠ bidder: protects my ♣K and I sometimes like 5-2 fits :)

[whereagles]

How will we get to 9 tricks in NT?

I'm hoping for 4-5 spade tricks plus a couple of diamonds. Opps might have some clubs to take, but they might also have a lot of trouble cahsing out more than 3 of them.

[Free]

How will we get to 9 tricks in NT?

I'm hoping for 4-5 spade tricks plus a couple of diamonds. Opps might have some clubs to take, but they might also have a lot of trouble cahsing out more than 3 of them.

Perhaps they can run some ♥s... :)

[jdonn]

If we bid 3♠ (another relay I presume?) what would partner tell us?

[Echognome]

If we bid 3♠ (another relay I presume?) what would partner tell us?

Your options now are:

 

3♠ Control ask

3NT To Play

4♣ Min/max ask with control run-ons

4♦ RKCB for ♠

4♥+ To Play

 

In response to 3♠, partner will bid 4♣ showing 3 controls.

[jdonn]

If we bid 3♠ (another relay I presume?) what would partner tell us?

Your options now are:

 

3♠ Control ask

3NT To Play

4♣ Min/max ask with control run-ons

4♦ RKCB for ♠

4♥+ To Play

 

In response to 3♠, partner will bid 4♣ showing 3 controls.

It wasn't asking what I wanted it to be asking. I'll just bid 3NT instead.

[Impact]

I play a similar system but would have chosen 1NT as my response: unless opener is maximum, I do not believe that game is a great be (yes I'll miss some 12 opposite 12 with no great fit), and his options over my 1NT bid are:-

 

2minor = possibly canape, only revert to 2H with 3 card support (old Blue Club principle)

2H= natural - usually 6carder

2S= at least 5H & 5S

2NT= invitational, responder may sign off in C, enquire for 4S/5H both, show a fair 5card S suit forcing, force with C below 3NT, pass or accept

3any= max with at least 5 cards in new suit named

3H= natural

 

Frankly I would have been better placed to make a decision with max/min knowledge and we might well have played 3D if he is min with this handshape.

 

I do not know what you use the 2NT bid to mean over other bids - but even if you considered it a relay to begin with, this hand is barely worth 2NT natural givig partner options...

 

These sorts of hands (ignoring the strength disparity problem vor the moment) become guesswork in relay as the correct choice often depends on suit quality - and you have no knowledge of that whatsoever: eg loaded in S & D and you probably want to play in 4S (which would be disastrous if his S are weak).

 

In the self-executed endplay you bid 3NT and hope.....but when you think about it, you know that

a) now he will play the contract and it will be a roadmap for defenders;

;) if it goes double from either opponent the only saving grace is that he will play it (but you may/should remove to 4D which he will still play!)

 

As an aside, you should zoom/run on to show controls/max/min to 3NT with what I assume is your last designated shape as presumably your responses to 2H are along the lines of :-

2S= Hi shortage

2NT= 4-4-4-1

3C= 4-4-5-0

3D= 4-5-4-0

 

So, once you get to last pattern you zoom to at least 3NT (the style I use depends on the number of steps available up to and including 3NT st if only 2 steps first is max and 3NT =min but if more than 2 steps may be step 1= min, others show controls...).

That would not necessarily help you in this instance but it will in many others...

 

Also with 5S & 4H precisely we open 1S (play 5 card S suit but only 4 card H suit so that with longer S the H suit must be at least 5) which takes some of the ambiguity out of our Major suit auctions.

 

With opener's actual shape the auction would start 1S from him and now a relay of 1NT would be preferred unhappily to receive 2C (3suiter 5-440 or 4+D), and gives you another awful choice between continuing the relay, bidding 2NT (awful ) or 3D with those 4D or 2S. I think I would have bid 2S having denied a S raise - and now opener picks me for balanced/ ish to good to pass 1S....and is pretty wellplaced.

 

regards

[Echognome]

I play a similar system but would have chosen 1NT as my response: unless opener is maximum, I do not believe that game is a great be (yes I'll miss some 12 opposite 12 with no great fit), and his options over my 1NT bid are:-

 

2minor = possibly canape, only revert to 2H with 3 card support (old Blue Club principle)

2H= natural - usually 6carder

2S= at least 5H & 5S

2NT= invitational, responder may sign off in C, enquire for 4S/5H both, show a fair 5card S suit forcing, force with C below 3NT, pass or accept

3any= max with at least 5 cards in new suit named

3H= natural

 

What does a 4522 or 45(31) min bid? I guess 2♥.

 

We have a similar option. I could have started with an artificial (and NF!) 2♣, which show any game invite (nominally 10-12) without 3 card support. Partner bids up to 2NT naturally (still some ambiguity on canape) with any min and bids 3♣+ naturally with a max. There are other systems, but we have been quite happy with this structure. 1NT for us shows ♠. Currently it shows 4+ spades and 6-9, but we may make 1NT forcing and increase that range to 12. (So that a hand with 6 spades and no heart fit doesn't fear a pass from partner. 2♠ for us is currently a fit jump.)

 

Frankly I would have been better placed to make a decision with max/min knowledge and we might well have played 3D if he is min with this handshape.

 

I had my choice here too. Perhaps it wasn't wisest on this hand to start with relaying. If I had started with 2♣, I'd probably play in 2♦ on the hand. However, I felt I might also miss a lot of good games. An opener of 11, 12, or 13 opposite a responding hand of 12 is often difficult in standard as well as relay.

 

I do not know what you use the 2NT bid to mean over other bids - but even if you considered it a relay to begin with, this hand is barely worth 2NT natural givig partner options...

 

In our old methods, I could have bid a natural 2NT. We know play that as a Jacoby-like raise. I agree with Richard on this that it is important to be able to show support immediately and not let the opponents into the auction easily when we have a fit. On more complicated hands I might decide to relay even with support, or when it goes (P) - 1M - (P) - ? I would be more tempted as well.

 

These sorts of hands (ignoring the strength disparity problem vor the moment) become guesswork in relay as the correct choice often depends on suit quality - and you have no knowledge of that whatsoever: eg loaded in S & D and you probably want to play in 4S (which would be disastrous if his S are weak).

 

Give partner a 12 count and then give partner a 14 count. In 2/1 the auction will start 1♠ - 1NT - 2♥ - 2NT - 3♦ - ? is partner 5431 or 5440? Where do you want to play? Do you feel confident to pass 3♦ when partner is min? In SAYC the auction will start 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♥ - 2NT - ? And now it will be up to opener to decide whether to pass or bid on. Opener will presumably pass any min because of the misfit. In other words, I don't think this hand is any *harder* just because it's a relay problem. And playing in ♠ won't necessarily be a disaster if ♠ are weak. Even xxxxx AKQx QJxx --- has chances if ♠ are 3-3.

 

In the self-executed endplay you bid 3NT and hope.....but when you think about it, you know that 

a) now he will play the contract and it will be a roadmap for defenders;

b ) if it goes double from either opponent the only saving grace is that he will play it (but you may/should  remove to 4D which he will still play!)

 

I don't think it's obvious to bid 3NT (hence the poll). I think your two reasons (which are really that his hand is known and yours unknown) is simply just a case to play in 4♠.

 

As an aside, you should zoom/run on to show controls/max/min to 3NT with what I assume is your last designated shape as presumably your responses to 2H are along the lines of :-

2S= Hi shortage

2NT= 4-4-4-1

3C= 4-4-5-0

3D= 4-5-4-0

 

So, once you get to last pattern you zoom to at least 3NT (the style I use depends on the number of steps available up to and including 3NT st if only 2 steps first is max and 3NT =min but if more than 2 steps may be step 1= min, others show controls...).

That would not necessarily help you in this instance but it will in many others...

 

We actually do. But I know that my partner is not confident on this part of the system yet. Our zoom is actually that you only zoom with a max and 4+ controls. So 3♥ = 5440 min or <4 controls, 3♠ = 5440 max, 4 controls, 3NT = 5440 max, 4+ controls. We never zoom past 3NT. So if I can trust partner to have his bid (he did), then he didn't have a max with 4 controls. I don't think it helped me too much on deciding which game though.

 

Thanks for your input.

[Impact]

I play a similar system but would have chosen 1NT as my response: unless opener is maximum, I do not believe that game is a great be (yes I'll miss some 12 opposite 12 with no great fit), and his options over my 1NT bid are:-

 

2minor = possibly canape, only revert to 2H with 3 card support (old Blue Club principle)

2H= natural - usually 6carder

2S= at least 5H & 5S

2NT= invitational, responder may sign off in C, enquire for 4S/5H both, show a fair 5card S suit forcing, force with C below 3NT, pass or accept

3any= max with at least 5 cards in new suit named

3H= natural

 

What does a 4522 or 45(31) min bid? I guess 2♥.

 

MOSTLY PASS 1NT WITH NO SIDE SUT SHOWN AND MINIMUM SEMI-BALANCED - BUT IF H QULAITY HIGH MAY BID 2H. WHEN THEY COME IN WE PLAY PENALTY DOUBLES AFTER THIS START!

 

We have a similar option. I could have started with an artificial (and NF!) 2♣, which show any game invite (nominally 10-12) without 3 card support. Partner bids up to 2NT naturally (still some ambiguity on canape) with any min and bids 3♣+ naturally with a max. There are other systems, but we have been quite happy with this structure. 1NT for us shows ♠. Currently it shows 4+ spades and 6-9, but we may make 1NT forcing and increase that range to 12. (So that a hand with 6 spades and no heart fit doesn't fear a pass from partner. 2♠ for us is currently a fit jump.)

 

Frankly I would have been better placed to make a decision with max/min knowledge and we might well have played 3D if he is min with this handshape.

 

I had my choice here too. Perhaps it wasn't wisest on this hand to start with relaying. If I had started with 2♣, I'd probably play in 2♦ on the hand. However, I felt I might also miss a lot of good games. An opener of 11, 12, or 13 opposite a responding hand of 12 is often difficult in standard as well as relay.

 

IF YOU HAVE THE INVITATIONAL GADGET OF 2C AVAILABLE IT DOES SEEM INCONSISTENT NOT TO UTILISE IT WITH A HAND WHICH FITS THE PARAMETERS PRETTY WELL - AND I ASSUME YOU OPEN MOST REASONABLE LOOKING 10s - SO WITH A HAND WHICH IS COMPLETELY LACKING IN SUPPORT (xx) THIS IS A BARE INVITATIONAL HAND.

 

N/V WE OPEN 1D (FORCING PASS STRUCTURE WITH 1H EITHER 5-9 UNSUITABLE FOR SINGLESUITED OR 2-SUITED PRE-EMPT OR 10-15 SINGLESUITED IN C) WHICH ALLOWS 1S AS A VALUE BID ABOUT 7/8-12 DENYING PRIME SUPPORT EITHER QUASI-BAL OR LONG C

 

I do not know what you use the 2NT bid to mean over other bids - but even if you considered it a relay to begin with, this hand is barely worth 2NT natural givig partner options...

 

In our old methods, I could have bid a natural 2NT. We know play that as a Jacoby-like raise. I agree with Richard on this that it is important to be able to show support immediately and not let the opponents into the auction easily when we have a fit. On more complicated hands I might decide to relay even with support, or when it goes (P) - 1M - (P) - ? I would be more tempted as well.

 

SORRY I WOULD ALWAYS SHOW SUYPPORT DIRECTLY TOO - BUT SUGGESTED 2NT AFTER THE INITIAL RELAY AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO CONTINUING THE RELAY PROCESS - NOW PARTNER WILL MOVE ONLY WITH A MAX....CERTAINLY IT IS STILL REASONABLE OVER THE 3SUITER BID...

 

 

These sorts of hands (ignoring the strength disparity problem vor the moment) become guesswork in relay as the correct choice often depends on suit quality - and you have no knowledge of that whatsoever: eg loaded in S & D and you probably want to play in 4S (which would be disastrous if his S are weak).

 

Give partner a 12 count and then give partner a 14 count. In 2/1 the auction will start 1♠ - 1NT - 2♥ - 2NT - 3♦ - ? is partner 5431 or 5440? Where do you want to play? Do you feel confident to pass 3♦ when partner is min? In SAYC the auction will start 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♥ - 2NT - ? And now it will be up to opener to decide whether to pass or bid on. Opener will presumably pass any min because of the misfit. In other words, I don't think this hand is any *harder* just because it's a relay problem. And playing in ♠ won't necessarily be a disaster if ♠ are weak. Even xxxxx AKQx QJxx --- has chances if ♠ are 3-3.

 

In the self-executed endplay you bid 3NT and hope.....but when you think about it, you know that 

a) now he will play the contract and it will be a roadmap for defenders;

b ) if it goes double from either opponent the only saving grace is that he will play it (but you may/should  remove to 4D which he will still play!)

 

I don't think it's obvious to bid 3NT (hence the poll). I think your two reasons (which are really that his hand is known and yours unknown) is simply just a case to play in 4♠.

 

YES- TYPICALLY THAT WAS ONE OF THEREASONS WE WOULD GIVE PARTNER FOR CHOOSING 4S AND WHY I MENTION IT.

HISTORICALLY EVERY TIME THAT WE HAVE TRIED TO GET CLEVER AND AVOID THE 3NT BID OVER THE LAST 15 YEARS WITH THESE SORTS OF DILEMMAS WE HAVE ONLY MADE MATTERS WORSE. THAT IS ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE I ADMIT, BUT IT HAS HAD A STRONG INFLUENCE UPON US....WE ARE MORE LIKELY TO MAKE THE DOWN THE MIDDLE CHOICE BUT I CONFESS I WOULD NOT RELAY HAPPILY WITH THAT RESPONDER'S HAND, AND NOT SURE AN ADDITIONAL J SHOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE, BUT TEND TO RELAY ON AUTOPILOT WITH MOST 13s WHICH LACK SUPPORT...

 

As an aside, you should zoom/run on to show controls/max/min to 3NT with what I assume is your last designated shape as presumably your responses to 2H are along the lines of :-

2S= Hi shortage

2NT= 4-4-4-1

3C= 4-4-5-0

3D= 4-5-4-0

 

So, once you get to last pattern you zoom to at least 3NT (the style I use depends on the number of steps available up to and including 3NT st if only 2 steps first is max and 3NT =min but if more than 2 steps may be step 1= min, others show controls...).

That would not necessarily help you in this instance but it will in many others...

 

We actually do. But I know that my partner is not confident on this part of the system yet. Our zoom is actually that you only zoom with a max and 4+ controls. So 3♥ = 5440 min or <4 controls, 3♠ = 5440 max, 4 controls, 3NT = 5440 max, 4+ controls. We never zoom past 3NT. So if I can trust partner to have his bid (he did), then he didn't have a max with 4 controls. I don't think it helped me too much on deciding which game though.

 

JUST THOUGHT THAT YOU WOULD/SHOULD HAVE HAD ADDITIONAL INFORMATION FROM HIS 3H BID AS OPPOSED TO ZOOMING...

 

Thanks for your input.

 

PLEASURE

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